Hi - as an adult ballet student, I am working hard to increase my turnout (more specifically, rotation) and I've heard a lot to say that it can - and can't - be done. I believe that at the least, it can be improved. In fact, I've made noticable progress in a short time and I'm keen to make much more! This post contains a couple of questions:<P>1. I'd really like to hear about exercises people here have found useful to increase turnout. I'm familiar with the exercises on the Nicole Vass Ballet Floor Barre tape, which I do at least twice a week (I have 3 ballet classes and one pilates as well). Any others?<P>2.One that I learned recently was the 'froggie'stretch - you lie on your stomach, knees to opposite sides, heels together, hips flat on the floor. My teacher suggested doing it for a long time in one sitting but I find it hard on my knees if I do it too long so I break it up into sessions of 15 minutes. I guess what I really want to know is - is it safe? It's a forced, passive stretch and while I feel it working and my hips usually feel good afterwards I think I just need a little reassurance here. Anyone?<BR>Thanks in advance, Danni.

Dear Danni<BR> <BR>Having a copy of Nicloe Vass's floor barre video I would agree that it is a very good resource for dancers, though it has to be used with care as many of the exercises require that a good degree of turn out is already present. As for the "frog" stretch position I am sorry to say that turn out is not assessed with the hips is flextion. However, there are exercises which may improove your turn out, some of which I have listed below, along with one gentle stretching exercise which works on an area that is generally difficult to stretch and where tightness often restricts turn out. These are exercises which I use with my own students although perhaps I should explain a little of the theory behind them first.<P>As you probably have been told many times turn out is the outward or external rotation of the leg at the hip joint. It is absolutely vital that the line of the leg from the hip down is maintained, as rotation at the knee and ankle are potentially very dangerous. Turn out at the hip is measured not when the hip is flexed, as in the 'frog' position, but with the thigh in the straight or extended position. Generally it is not possible to increase the range of external rotation of the hips once a student has undergone puberty. However, whilst a dancer may seem to lack turn out this is often not due to anatomical limitations. Instead tightness at the front of the hips and weaknesses of the muscles which control turn out are a more likely factor. As well as working on the muscle groups responsible for turn out, especially the inside thigh muscles, it is important to ensure that those which correctly place the pelvis are also strengthened. This is because the muscles that rotate the leg are attached to the pelvis, and if it is misaligned they are unable to work properly.<P>1. Lie on your back with the knees bent at 90 degrees and your feet flat on the floor, legs parallel, holding a small cushion between your thighs. Hands should be placed on the sides of the pelvis so you can feel that it is correctly aligned. (You may need someone else to help you with this at first if you are not sure where it should be. Also don’t do this with your hair in a bun as it makes it difficult to place the head correctly.) Engage the abdominal muscles by drawing the naval back to the spine allowing the pelvis to start to tilt under. Now increase the tilt by squeezing your lower glutial muscles and draw the body up peeling your back off the floor one vertebra at a time until your body and upper thighs are in line, still maintaining the squeeze in the inner thighs on the cushion. Now bring both arms forward and upwards over the head. Lower the body, this time rolling down through the spine one vertebrae at a time, stopping at the point where the pelvis is still just tilted and the navel still drawn back to the spine. Bring the hands to the side of the head and curl the upper back off the floor maintaining the squeeze in the abdominals. Extend the arms just past the knees and squeeze deeply into the abdominals for a count of two. Then rotate the body lifting the left shoulder slightly further off the floor and reaching both arms slightly to the right of your right knee. Again hold this for a count of two. Now bring the body back to the centre. Repeat the rotation to the left. Finally having brought the body back to centre lower to the starting position. The whole exercise should be done slowly and clearly, maintaining the squeeze on the cushion throughout. The movements are quite small, but should be strong and clearly felt. This can be done up to 10 times in succession. However, to start with only do as many as you feel able. Remember, as with most things in dance, quality is more important than quantity<P>2. Lie face down on the floor (you may require an exercise mat if you find this uncomfortable) with your forehead resting on the back of your hands, your legs parallel. Breathe out and try to draw your naval to your spine and feel the lower glutial muscles engaging. (Do keep breathing though.) Lift the straight leg just off the floor, still parallel, being careful not to lift the hip (Both sides of the front of the pelvis should stay in contact with the floor or mat.) Keeping the upper leg held in this position bend at the knee as far as possible, bringing the foot (which should be relaxed, not pointed) towards the buttocks. This action should be strong and controlled. Try to imagine you have an orange between your upper and lower leg and you are squeezing the juice out of it. Straighten the leg and relax it down. Again this can be repeated slowly up to 10 times with each leg.<P>3. Lying on your side with your pelvis vertical and your underneath arm stretching out with your head resting on it, place the foot of your top leg in front to support your body. Use your abdominal muscles on your lower side to try and hold your spine straight. Now lift the lower leg off the floor, turning it out and pointing your foot, and circle it en dehors up to 10 times. Then repeat en dedans before lowering the leg. The movement should again be slow and controlled using the inside thigh muscles to maintain the lift off the floor. Repeat the whole exercise with the other leg.<P>4. Sit on the edge of a table and lie back with a cushion under your head. Bring both knees up to your chest. Now draw the naval into the spine so the whole back is making contact with the table. Let the left leg hang down over the edge of the table, holding your right gently to your chest, maintaining the hold in your abdominal muscles. Maintain the position for up to 3 minutes. The weight of the leg will gently stretch out quadriceps and the front of the hip. Repeat with the other leg.<P>Having done the above exercises try to apply them to your class work. Stand with the feet turned out in first, checking that the pelvis is correctly aligned, engaging the abdominal muscles by lifting from your pelvic floor to your naval. You should feel that your hamstrings are gently activated to maintain the weight placement of the body. If you have hyper extended legs try to avoid pushing back into the knees, rather keep the line of the leg straight. Demi-plié trying to maintain the pelvis in its correct placement, thinking of opening the thighs so the knees stay in line with the toes. As you stretch up feel like you are trying to rotate both thighs outwards, without disturbing the line of the pelvis. Repeat this exercise up to 10 times, concentrating on the feeling you using all the muscles you worked in the previous exercises. Again you may need someone to help you with your alignment. Don’t be tempted to try and look down, as placement of the head is vital to the feeling of correct overall placement.<P>I hope the above helps. Let me know if you have any problems.<P>Best Wishes<P>Teacher UK (Tuk)<BR>

Thank you so much for your generous answer Tuk. I've also printed off and kept your post on stretching which I've found really helpful. <BR>It's so true that turnout seems to be limited by tightness and tension rather than anatomical factors - at least for me - the more I dance, the more I become aware of the tension I hold - particularly in my quads and gluts. In this respect, the exercises you gave for the abdominals and inner thighs should really help and the stretch for the front of the hip sounds like exactly what I need. Can't wait to get home tonight and try them. Thanks again - I'll let you know how I'm going.<BR>Danni

what an intelligent exchange, in my absence! who needs *ME* !? <P>thanks TUK: that's why i was so keen to see you here at CD. <P>i haven't had time to read your full post yet, but i just want to pop in briefly to say - danni: i wouldn't do that frog stretch (prone) if i were you. only last night, i explained to my students how some people do it, but it's hard on the knees, so why take the risk? <P>and you have answered your own question - some people may say improvement of this and other things, as an adult, is not possible - but you've already EXPERIENCED it! - so trust your own judgement here, and power on (with care)!

Grace, you're so right about trusting my own judgment - I think I just needed reassurance! As for the froggie stretch - it HAS helped the flexibility in my upper legs and groin - but I've decided that I don't want to risk my knees and I'll be doing it face up from now on, along with exercises Tuk recommends. <BR>Danni

great danni,<P>i am printing TUK's article at this moment so i can give it good attention. did you read his other piece in the STRETCHING thread? it's excellent and touches on these same topics. <P>he mentions there, PNF (proprioceptive neuromusculatr facilitation) stretching - a mouthful, yes, but worth knowing about.<P>when i've read his piece above, i'll get back to you, with a little more descriptive stuff about applying PNF to your turnout question....patience...

Thanks Grace - I'll look forward to it. Actually I printed off both Tuks tips on turnout and the stretching thread and I've put both in my brand new dance note book. My teacher has given us great handouts from Gretchen Wards book and I also had a week last week where I had a lot of new insights (much tko my delight) and wanted a place to keep it all together - hence the enthusiastic approach to a note book. <P>I've done a little PNF stretching in yoga and find it fascinating - I'd love to have some ideas on applying it to turnout exercises. Bt the way, that exercise Tuk gave for the inner thighs (circles) is the BEST!<BR>Thanks, Danni

i printed TUK's article and i've been thinking carefully about this.....he certainly never takes the easy way out!<P>i'm going to try out his exercises on my students (and maybe my lazy self...).<P>it seems to me that he has provided excellent body conditioning exercises, that have as much to do with other postural aspects, as with turnout. i feel i won't really understand what he's done, until i try it out.<P>to stick strictly to turn out, one observation i would make, is that i believe - from experience- that the ability to turn 'in' is related to the ability to turn 'out'. <P>in other words, i believe exercises which do both, are of value. i don't just mean going to a neutral or to a parallel leg/foot alignment, but to an actively turned in one.<P>this is so hard to explain in just words....<P>i haven't seen nicole vass' floor barre tape, but i learned kniaseff floor barre from lucette aldous - who was also vass's floor barre teacher. i know vass made alterations to some exercises after training as a physiotherapist.<P>the floor barre exercises which i learned from lucette, and which vass would have learned also, are excellent for mobilising the rotation - both ways. hopefully you already have seen & tried some of these.<P>taking this concept into the barre work, basic exercises can be altered to include this muscle action and mobilisation, for example:- tendu devant, turn the leg in, turn the leg out, close to 1st or 5th, (etc).....can be done en croix obviously.<P>what this is doing is USING the turnout muscles, which TUK's exercises help you to identify and to relax or stretch, as far as i can tell....TUK: would you agree with this interpretation of your words? this is how i am understanding you...<P>- that any area of the body where one wants more facility, must be stretched to enable range of motion, and simultaneously strengthened to allow the body to exploit that increased range of motion......<P>please tell me, TUK, if i've misunderstood. thanks!

Dear Grace and Danni<P>Thank you both for your kind comments. Please do not take any of what follows amiss, as much of what I would like to say applies far more to those readers who are less well versed in the technicalities of balletic training then either of you and especially you Grace. This started as a letter and has practically turned into another article aimed at a wider readership. I would just like to say in advance that I hope that I will once again be forgiven for its length.<P>Best wishes Tuk<P>Before starting out I feel that I need to explain both the philosophical approach I try to take in my postings and how this relates to the amount of technical detail that I often end up providing. Then I would like to deal with my approach to the subject of turn out.<P>Presently I am a part time MA Ballet Studies student in addition to my teaching work. Consequently I am used to researching and discussing topics related to the art form in considerable depth. One of my principal concerns is to use this academic approach to feed into my practical work to try to overcome the schism that seems to exist between dance practioners and dance academics and feed what I consider to be valuable information into the training of my pupils in a form appropriate to their particular level. As the Internet has become a common research tool I have become increasingly familiar with both the amount and quality of dance related information that is available.<P>Over the last couple of months I have accessed quite a few of the boards where young dancers are constantly seeking advice. In this time I have become very concerned not just with some of the issues that are raised, the disturbing trend towards seeking new dieting hints is one, but with many of the answers that are given. That these tend to be very brief and lack detail seems to be indicative of how this form of communication has developed, but what is far more worrying is that much of the advice is fallacious and some may even be positively detrimental.<P>Please do not get me wrong here, I am not on some one-person crusade to clear up inaccuracies on the internet, but I do feel that if I am going to contribute to the understanding of dance on this media I want to do so in a way that gives far more substantive information which is, to the best of my knowledge, accurate.<P>Another reasoning I take is one that is purely practical and based on my own teaching experience. I guess I could best describe my work as the hands on, kneeling on the floor, feel the movement here approach. But here on the Internet that is self evidently impossible. When approaching an issue such as the one under discussion here I feel it necessary to take quite a broad perspective of the inquiry, unless the inquirer is very detailed on the problem they are having and very specific on the information they are seeking. This is because technical problems can have a number of causes and require a range of solutions. I would rather give too much information then not adequately deal with the problem at hand.<P>I am sorry about the above, which reads as a rather long piece of self-justification, but I hope it gives you some idea of what I hope to achieve.<P>Returning, you will probably be glad to read, to the issue of turn out I would like to start by considering the problems related to stretching. On this I really take my cue from Justin Howse and Shirley Hancock's book Dance Technique and Injury Prevention (Second edition 1992, A & C Black). As this is a very well known text I am sure that many teachers have already seen it, but for those readers who have not had access to the book I think the following paragraphs are particularly important.<P>"Everyone has an anatomical limit to their range of external rotation of the hips (i.e. turn out). This range cannot be exceeded. In the young student, limitation due to ligament tightness can be gradually improved by correct working and judicious stretching. This is most likely to be achieved before puberty.<P>"Apparent limitation may be due to tightness at the front of the hips or frequently by muscles controlling the turn out, especially the adductors."<P>(Howse and Hancock, 1992, 176)<P>The section on turn out includes very clear photographic illustrations, especially relating to the 'frog' position that, for copyright reasons, I have not included. However I would recommend that anyone concerned with this issues tries to obtain a copy of Howse and Hancock's book.<P>Before any confusion arises I should say that I am not advocating the principal that stretching is of no use to improving turn out, rather that it is necessary to be realistic about what such exercises are aimed at achieving. Karsavina's mantra of correct thought and correct movement always going together is as true here as in any other part of ballet. From the above it appears that stretching in dancers who have undergone puberty is unlikely to achieve any increase in the anatomical range of turn out and that great care must be taken with pupils who have not yet undergone this period. However, it is also clear that certain areas of tightness can restrict the available movement, making it seem that the dancer has less apparent turn out then is actually present.<P>In addition to the exercises for stretching out the front of the hip, one of which I included in my original posting, I have noticed that both stiffness and imbalance of strength in other muscle groups around the pelvis, lower back and upper leg can restrict turn out. Like much of dance, turn out requires both correctly placed effort and relaxation in the various muscle groups. It also fundamentally depends upon the correct placing of the various parts of the body, most especially the pelvis. Stiffness in certain muscle groups can actually restrict the correct placement of the pelvis negating the operative function of those muscles that are responsible for turn out. I am particularly here thinking about posterial muscle groups of the lower back, the glutials and hamstrings. However the specific muscle groups that need stretching will depend upon the individual pupil and need really to be assessed in person.<P>Personally I would advocate slow yoga style stretching for these areas, accompanied by careful strengthening exercises, as tight muscles are also frequently weak. It should be remembered that stiffness is not synonymous with strength.<P>As regards the emphasis I placed in my original posting on exercise related to pelvic placement I would like to explain my reasoning further.<P>Turn out is not a passive position, but a continually active movement. It has to be sustained by the constant use of the correct muscle groups. Muscular function is, however, more complex then a simple contraction or release. A muscle operates between two or more points of attachment to parts of the skeletal framework in order to initiate movement. Simply put the origin of a muscle is the attachment point that does not move when the muscle contracts, whilst the insertion is the attachment point that does.<P>The adductors, which were previously mentioned in the extract form Howse and Hancock as the principal muscle group concerned with external rotation, originate on the front part of the pubic bone and lower part of the hip bone and insert down the inside of the femur from the hip to the knee (Blakey, 1992, 40). Consequently in order for them to be able to be able to actively initiate turn out the insertion points, which are all on the pelvis, have to be stabilised in the correct position.<P>This is a common problem with students who come to ballet having done a great deal of gymnastics. At first it would seem that the emphasis from a young age on flexibility would be an advantage but it is frequently accompanied by what I would describe as unfortunate habitual practices that need to be educated out of the students body before they are able to utilise their physical aptitude in a way applicable to ballet. Not the least of these is the highly tilted pelvis with arched back that is still a quite common practice at the end of gymnastic movements. Until this is corrected the adductors cannot operate and consequently there is an apparent lack of turn out.<P>Whilst this is an extreme example the frequency of less severe problems with pelvic placement is such that it is normally my first concern when considering any trouble a student may be having with turn out if they are not exhibiting any obvious anatomical or technical problems. In addition I also add exercise for strengthening the adductors and stretching the front of the hip, examples of which I gave in my original posting. This I then try to follow through into the class work as I feel it is important that the student feels the use of the correct muscle groups in the context of the work that it is aimed at if they are truly to gain from the exercises.<P>Here I would agree with Grace in her use of exercises such as the example she gave, which I have also frequently used with my own students. This is an example of an exercise that helps to develop awareness of what the movement feels like, a sense of which is known as proprioception, or as Martha Graham more succinctly put it 'movement memory'. However as Howse and Hancock observe internal rotation, turn in, is indicative of the total joint range in rotation (Howse and Hancock, 1992, 177). Consequently turning in does not actually affect the anatomical range of movement available for turning out. It may however, have a more subtle and valuable effect.<P>In ballet maintenance of turn out is a self-evident requirement and, as has already been mentioned it is a movement initiated and controlled by specific muscle groups. This means that these muscle groups are in a constant state of use while the dancer is active in class. Continually using a muscle group has two adverse effects. Firstly they can become hypertonic through overuse and when stretched may be venerable to tearing. This is an example of where exercises that stretch and relax the adductors are a valuable adjunct to those already given to help with turn out. Secondly there is the problem of muscular imbalance. This needs a little further explanation.<P>All skeletal muscle groups have what is known as synergists. These are muscle groups that perform the opposite movement. In the case of the adductors the internal rotator muscle is the gracilis, which originates on the lower edge of the pubic bone and inserts on the upper part of the inside of the tibia (Blakey, 1992, 38). As this muscle is not deliberately going to be activated in the ballet class it is clear that there will be a tendency for it to become relatively weaker then its synergists, the adductors. The problem is that too great an imbalance between synergistic muscle groups can make the dancer venerable to injury. Therefore exercises that utilise those muscle groups that in the context of ballet class seem less relevant are of considerable importance. Another case in point would be exercises where the foot is (dorsi) flexed, to help counteract the imbalance between the anterior muscles of the lower leg and the calf muscles. In this way Grace's exercise is helping to avoid the development of a potential future problem.<P>Much of the above has been very technical but I hope that it proves useful. I would be most grateful for any further feedback regarding this topic. Please let me know what you think.<P>Teacher UK (Tuk)<P>Again much of what I have written above derives in part from my own experience, the help of some very experienced and knowledgeable teachers with whom I have had the privilege to work and my various studies. I include below some of the literature that I have used in part to compile this posting. Once again though I should emphasise that any mistakes in the text are my own.<P>Blakey, Paul (1992) The Muscle Book, Bibliotek Books Ltd<P>Blakey, Paul (1994) Stretching Without Pain, Twin Eagles Educational & Healing Institute<P>Clarkson, Priscilla M. and Margaret Skrinar editors (1988) Science of Dance Training, Human Kinetics Books<P>Grieg, Valerie (1994) Inside Ballet Technique, Princeton Book Company<P>Howse, Justin and Shirley Hancock (1992) Dance Technique and Injury Prevention (2nd edition), A & C Black (Publishers) limited<P>Mehta, Silva, Mira Mehta and Shyam Mehta (1990) Yoga The Iyengar Way, Dorling Kindersley Limited<P>Ryan, Allan J, and Robert E. Stephens editors (1987) The Healthy Dancer Dance Medicine for Dancers, Dance Books Ltd<P>Selby, Anna and Alan Herdman (1999) Pilates Creating The Body You Want, Gaia Books Limited<P>Watkins, Andrea and Priscilla M. Clarkson (1990) Dancing Longer Dancing Stronger, Princeton Book Company<BR>

Tuk, your answers and insight are thorough and excellent, as usual. The "Dance Technique and Injury Prevention" by House and Hancock is very good, and I include it in my library of helpful books. Another good one, for those interested, is "The Thinking Body" by Mabel Elsworth Todd. Books about structural integration or rolfing are very useful also.<P>I teach a particularly specific form of pilates. While rehabilitating dancers, and others. (Rehabilitating movement, not just injuries.) I have found it increasingly important to teach and train correct placement of the spine/pelvis. It is easily misunderstood. Even a small degree of misalignment can have a dramatic effect. For people with a lordotic spine for example, the tendency is to overcorrect to an anterior position, even with an understanding that this is not right. It takes an amount of one on one training for the most part to develop the proprioceptive awareness in the area. <P>As you mentioned in your recent post, the pelvis and lower back have an important role to play in correct development of turnout. I spend less time, very little, as a matter of fact on working the flexion of the lower back, and a great deal of time working on extention to open the lumbar facets. This is one of the very few places I find yoga lacking in, besides working specifically to define and educate what neutral spine is.<P>It is nice to see someone knowledgable posting "movement" advice. I, too, have been frustrated at some of the information I've seen presented. Looking forward to seeing and sharing more posts with you!<p>[This message has been edited by Maggie (edited July 29, 2000).]

TUK _ great stuff again - i say that without having read it!!!!!!!!!<P>re "Presently I am a part time MA Ballet Studies student in addition to my teaching work.<BR> Consequently I am used to researching and discussing topics related to the art form in<BR> considerable depth."<P>aha! NOW i understand better your approach! NOT that i had any problem with it - on the contrary - i LOVE it - but i DO have to print everything of yours because it cannot be just skimmed and lightly tossed aside! <P>would you like to pay for my next printer cartridge? <P>seriously, though, will print and read this properly, as i know it will be worth it - and i know EXCATLY what you mean about the internet seeming to encourage this instant answer thing.<P>what's been getting to ME at one other board which i know we both frequent, is the bratty tone of "I want this NOW - so GIVE it to me", in relation to asking technical questions. <P>i saw one, this am, that was headlined something like 'desperate info needed in one hour!!!!!' (i think it was all in CAPS, as well) - and it was a student going to a tryout in one hour, wanting to know how to improve her 'switch leaps and fouettés'(BOTH spelled wrong, of course)!<P>no further comment......or i'll go into a rant!

btw danni - this exchange has NOTHING to do with YOU! - you asked an intelligent question, and you asked it well.....thanks for giving us long-winded-types the opportunity to get into this rewarding discussion (which may well inspire another thread!)

Dear Grace<P>I know exactly what and where you mean. As a moderator on that sites chat room I have been greatly saddened by the tone and content of the boards. The person though I feel most for is the man who set them up, who must despare to see how all his hard work is being abused. When I answer questions there it is always by e-mail, but I am willing to bet that the kind of answers I give are not at all welcome. I al just very glad to be able to come to this site where logical and informed debate still holds sway.<P>Best wishes<P>Tuk

This has turned into a very interesting discussion. BTW, the reason I posted my question on this board rather than others I visit regularly is that I knew this was my best chance of finding reliable advice! You're right - some of the information on some boards is downright frightening.<P>On the subject of turnout, I've taken further classes, had a good think about it and read Valerie Griegs book and Dancing Longer Dancing Stronger, (which I was pleased to see on your reference list Tuk) and have what I think is a broader view of where I need to go. <P>Before I can think about reaching the full extent of my natural rotation I have a lot of work to do (in calss, in pilates and at home), particularly in aligning my pelvis and spine correctly (I tilt forward). I REALLY overuse my quads and I'm going to have to work hard on my hip flexors and inner thighs and abs to help me to stop. Thanks for pointing out that a tight muscle is not necessarily a strong one Tuk - I actually didn't relaise that but things make a lot more sense now that I do.<P>Again - thanks for the advice and the stimulating discussion. I'm a little daunted by the prosepct of undoing years of moving a particular way but at least I have a plan and teachers to supervise me. Please, if I'm on the wrong track, someone let me know! <BR>Danni <P>

Danni, you're absolutely on the right track. You shouldn't feel daunted at all. You are apparently developing a keen awareness of your body that will stand you in good stead as you continue your dancing. <BR>You know now that you are taking old patterns out of your body, and putting new patterns in. It doesn't happen that you get rid of the old ones completely, and *then* put in new ones, as if you were clearing off a shelf to make room for new books. It happens in parts with some overlapping. Sometimes movements you are trying to do will feel worse, while you are re-aligning, before they feel better. Often the movements feel good right away and offer you a wonderful feeling of freedom. <BR>Because you've chosen to address these aspects of your movement patterns, you will understand training that much better, and if you ever choose to teach you will have accrued some valuable insight and information.