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 Post subject: The Mariinsky's "Ondine"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:38 pm 
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I was wondering if anyone knowns if there is any way to get a hold of a film of the Lacotte's revival of "Ondine"?? I am absolutely desperate to see it.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:27 am 
...


Last edited by fedora on Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:30 pm 
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May I remind everyone that we do not permit sale or trading of non-commerical films via our boards - that includes the board PM and e-mail systems.

All such matters should be conducted via private e-mail.

Kate


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:28 am 
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oh no!!! I was just asking if there were any films via online and/or commercial release. Im sorry!! I dont wanna break the rules....I am new!!!! :)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:26 am 
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Location: London, England; Tallinn, Estonia
Thanks for explaining, Anthony - no problem from our side. Hope we see you here regularly.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:05 am 
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Hi Anthony,

I just wanted to respond to your post. While I watched the premieres of Ondine here, and while another performance of it will take place at the Mariinsky on Oct. 13 (not too late to book a plane ticket! :D ), I haven't seen any videos of it around, at least not in St. Petersburg. The premiere was filmed..but whether it was just for local publicity/clip coverage or for later video sale (and if so by which company), I am not sure.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:02 pm 
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Thanks for the reply Catherine!

Unfortunately poor old me cant afford to fly to Petersburg to see the great Mariinsky. But it is my dream before I die (Im 25 - so I think i have a few years left!!!!)

I am awfully curious about the extensive number of films of recent Mariinsky Ballet performances that were obviously filmed on cam-corders that have been making the online rounds of late - there are ALOT........does the theatre allow poeple in with cam-corders on certain nights?

The reason I ask is because just about all of this footage doesnt seem to have been filmed with camras that were 'hidden away in shirts or jackets' if you known what I mean.....it seems whomever was responsible for the filming did it rather conspicuously :?: - not to mention the fact that one can hear applause and chatter very close to the camra-man/woman.

Well, if anyone knows of a complete film of "Ondine" please message me...

--Anthony :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:39 am 
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Greetings

Camcorders are forbidden in the Mariinsky theater (and any other theatre) - no company that I know of permits the use of cameras, camcorders or any recording device in the theatre. Some companies will allow people to get away with taking photos at curtain calls, but I think it's gotten out of hand in some theatres.

[I have no problem with ushers 'looking the other way' when people want to get some pics of their favorite dancer's final performance curtain calls or the bows at a special gala, but for instance at the Royal Opera House in London, there seem to be a whole cadre of folks that converge on to the stalls standing room seats with professional type cameras to get curtain call photos. I find the constant flashes distracting, not to mention the feeling of being shoved out of the standing room slot I paid for so they can get a shot. Almost become a competition. Me thinks it's time to ban all but point & click cameras - when companies want shots they use their own professional photographers who can take pictures from inconspicuous places and know better than to use flash in such a situation where it's totally useless]

Unfortunately illegal recording has become a problem at the Mariinsky, and it's not something the company is happy about. I suspect the ushers look the other way or the videotapers know which seats to get where they can 'hide' as much as possible. Also, most unfortunately, copyright violation has become a serious problem in Russia - not sure about the laws, but remember the recent case of the music website that was blatantly selling illegal downloads, but hiding behind (so they claimed) Russian law.

Generally the choreography and music are both copyrighted, as well as the costumes/set, so it's a double whammy of copyright violation. Which is why we don't permit people to trade or sell non-commercial tapes on this website or post videos/links to videos that violate copyright.

Unfortunately, there is a great dearth of ballet on video. There is more of the Mariinksy than many companies, but not that much, especially of more recent productions. The major problem is the cost of paying the dancers, the musicians, the stagehands (all the unions) and the copyright fees. Most companies tape a lot of rehearsla & performance for their own purposes, but it's never made public because of the restrictions by the unions . For some good reason - dancers do have a right to know and be prepared for appearances that will be filmed for public posterity.

I think there is starting to be and needs to be some understanding by the various unions that videos are one of the best ways to promote dance, and it's probably in their best interest to lower their compensation in exchange for drawing more people to the art form.

But I think that move is only going to happen if the general public makes an effort to respect copyright because every time an illegal copy is made, that's one less legal copy sold. And no video/DVD company is going to sink a lot of time & money into selling videos/DVDs that sell only a few copies because there a million illegal copies out there. Nor are companies going to go to the time & effort of making videos/DVDs if they can't get some return because they have to pay the people in the videos & to make the videos.

Currently a lot of companies seem to be moving towards the use of 2-3 minute clips on their website, and using a form that can't be copied (at least if you're not an internet genius) or downloaded to a computer. Many European companies including the Royal Danish Ballet have a wealth of video material, though the trend is slower to pick up in the US, perhaps because of stronger unions and a lesser use of TV commercials to advertise companies.

Kate


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:40 am 
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Location: St. Petersburg, Russia
Just co-signing Kate's post. :D

And i wanted to add, at least as far as the MT is concerned:
-they do prohibit use of cameras and camcorders during the performance
-they do allow you to openly take photos/film *at bows only*

I have sat next to one of who I think is either Mad about Mariinsky or someone else, who was clearly there (in a Benoir) to film, and not to watch the performance. In this case the woman's entire focus was getting the dance onto her camcorder. Unfortunately, since she was in a Benoir and not in one of the orchestra seats, the ushers had no way of seeing or stopping her.

I've also seen countless tourists filming (randomly, a minute here or there--but not entire ballets) during performances, and this too is annoying -- if only because I know they're not only breaking the rules, but don't necessarily know what they're filming, and it is distracting.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:15 am 
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Location: London UK
A few thoughts and comments on Kate’s excellent post.

Quote:
Camcorders are forbidden in the Mariinsky theater (and any other theatre) - no company that I know of permits the use of cameras, camcorders or any recording device in the theatre. Some companies will allow people to get away with taking photos at curtain calls, but I think it's gotten out of hand in some theatres.


I’m puzzled as to where all these video clips are coming from that are popping up all over the internet, mostly of Kirov performances; are they actually authorized? I was under the impression that the Maryinsky is particularly strict about both video and still photography and remember a friend of mine telling me how Vaziev himself once bore down on him in a fury accusing him of taking photos: it was a case of mistaken identity as not only was he not taking photos, he doesn’t even own a camera.

In Russia it’s fairly commonplace for dancers to arrange for someone to film their performances for later scrutiny. Many companies actually have a policy of filming their performances and I once went to a gala in Moscow where one of the items was a filmed montage of onstage mistakes from the Stanislavsky company, a kind of balletic “It Will be all Right on the Night”

Quote:
[I have no problem with ushers 'looking the other way' when people want to get some pics of their favorite dancer's final performance curtain calls or the bows at a special gala, but for instance at the Royal Opera House in London, there seem to be a whole cadre of folks that converge on to the stalls standing room seats with professional type cameras to get curtain call photos. I find the constant flashes distracting, not to mention the feeling of being shoved out of the standing room slot I paid for so they can get a shot. Almost become a competition. Me thinks it's time to ban all but point & click cameras - when companies want shots they use their own professional photographers who can take pictures from inconspicuous places and know better than to use flash in such a situation where it's totally useless]


Couldn’t agree more. Worse than the stalls circle scramble you describe was a recent experience I had while sitting in the upper slips at the opera house for the RB 75th anniversary performance. I wouldn’t choose to sit up there for ballet usually but it was all I could get on that occasion. It’s uncomfortable enough at the best of times but I had the added misfortune to be squashed up against an obese young woman who took copious amounts of photos with flash after every individual number. Opera House policy is that performance shots are banned but curtain calls are permitted, so I just had to endure being half blinded. I think the ROH should rethink the rules on photography and only allow audience members to take photos without flash.

Quote:
Unfortunately illegal recording has become a problem at the Mariinsky, and it's not something the company is happy about. I suspect the ushers look the other way or the videotapers know which seats to get where they can 'hide' as much as possible. Also, most unfortunately, copyright violation has become a serious problem in Russia - not sure about the laws, but remember the recent case of the music website that was blatantly selling illegal downloads, but hiding behind (so they claimed) Russian law.


Russian law is very lax where copyright is concerned and always has been, it’s a leftover from Soviet times I’m afraid and as far as the internet is concerned it’s a case of ‘anything goes’. I hate to say this but I’m sure the usherettes will happily ‘look away’ for a financial consideration.

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Unfortunately, there is a great dearth of ballet on video. There is more of the Mariinksy than many companies, but not that much, especially of more recent productions. The major problem is the cost of paying the dancers, the musicians, the stagehands (all the unions) and the copyright fees. Most companies tape a lot of rehearsla & performance for their own purposes, but it's never made public because of the restrictions by the unions . For some good reason - dancers do have a right to know and be prepared for appearances that will be filmed for public posterity.


I would imagine that in Russia there is a vast amount of filmed archive material as whenever I’ve been to Moscow and switched on the television there was almost always a feature about ballet and special performances in both Moscow and St Pete’s were routinely broadcast. I don’t think that Russian unions have the same sort of clout as western European or American unions though and think that whatever the reason is that Russian performances don’t get put on DVD, it is probably for reasons other than union objections.

Quote:
I think there is starting to be and needs to be some understanding by the various unions that videos are one of the best ways to promote dance, and it's probably in their best interest to lower their compensation in exchange for drawing more people to the art form.


Amen to that, I couldn’t agree more, it’s vitally important that dance is made more popular be whatever means, especially now that it is almost totally ignored by the UK media.

Quote:
But I think that move is only going to happen if the general public makes an effort to respect copyright because every time an illegal copy is made, that's one less legal copy sold. And no video/DVD company is going to sink a lot of time & money into selling videos/DVDs that sell only a few copies because there a million illegal copies out there. Nor are companies going to go to the time & effort of making videos/DVDs if they can't get some return because they have to pay the people in the videos & to make the videos.


In the UK it always seems to come down to the wrangles with the unions. The BBC has untold riches stashed away in its archives, some of it dating back to the 1930’s. I think its high time the Beeb made an effort to get this stuff out into the public domain, either with the releases of DVD’s or perhaps on a dedicated website. Although certain copyright fees would still have to be made, there surely wouldn’t be a need to pay royalties to performers, technicians etc when most or all are now dead.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:46 am 
Although a matter of concern, this is nothing in comparison to what some ballet masters are doing to the original choreography of Marius Petipa, many of whom are Russian ex-patriots. Of course there were no copyright laws at the time, but one would think that they showed more restrain in trying to make a name for themselves on great classics and more respect for their own culture.

* * *


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:38 am 
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Location: St. Petersburg, Russia
Not intended as a tangent, but as further comment on one of your comments, Cassandra.

Russian unions - do they exist? My understanding is no. There is the Komsomol, the holdover from Soviet times, that currently regulates theatre employment and labor issues. The theatre elects a representative who monitors things such as the one-day-off-per-month (or something similar :roll: ) rule within the theatre, as well as vacation or other backpay, fire safety issues, etc.. But its power, compared to the overall theatrical conglomerate, is fairly small. They have -- to the best of my knowledge -- no role or say in such things as whether performances are filmed or not, copyright issues for publicity and photos etc. I think any copyright issues are left to the realm of the individual, with small (very small) protection on the behalf of the press office. I do think one would be more successful finding a needle in a haystack than searching for a concrete copyright law in Russia at present time. In fact most recordings (not necessarily ballet, but tapes, CDs, DVDs of any movie, soundtrack etc) are pirated copies here. These are just my observations.

fedora - true. people love to reinvent the wheel...


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:57 am 
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fedora - true. people love to reinvent the wheel...

In fact, even take credit for it. To me it's they are who are real pirates, robbing us of our precious common heritage. Tragic if my children will have to be content with The Sleeping Beauty that takes place in the tropical forest with characters dressed like parrots. Will Rose Adagio survive the siege of Russian ex-patriots hurrying make a quick buck on the works of their great predecessors? And is there a way to fight it?

Not to minimize the problem of the pirated music and movies, but to me, it’s the survival of The Sleeping Beauty, Swan Lake and La Bayadere that is of far greater concern.

* * *


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:48 am 
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Location: Canada
Greetings again

Acutally I think most of the 'classics' have been recorded enough commercially or for archival/company performances that we have a pretty good record of what they looked like from at least the mid twentieth century on. So whatever is and has been done to them since, we can look back.

But that's assuming that Petipa et al didn't change them multiple times during their lifetimes - Balanchine certainly changed his ballets minorly and majorly over his lifetime. Which is one of the reasons the ballets look different depending on which repetiteur set them for which company, and why different doesn't necessarily mean wrong.

And one must remember that dance and dancers have changed, so ballets are going to look different now, no matter how much you try and stick to what is 'the original'.

But as to videos - when I said there was a dearth of ballet on video, I was referring to commercially available video. I think there's a HUGE amount of ballet on video that's not made available to the public because it was taken for archival reasons or to record a rehearsal/performance for use in future teaching/staging. Though some is available to watch at archival video libraries like the one at the NYC Performing Arts Library. And I don't begrudge the unions some control over what gets released to the public, because the dancers especially should and need to have a fair chunk of their time which is not open to public perusal and should be entitled to some of the proceeds.

Perhaps a step in the right direction would be for video agreements to be altered to require filmers to set aside a 1-2 minute clip of a ballet (or less if it's a really short pdd etc) to be available free of copyright for non-commercial use AS LONG AS the clip is always posted with a set caption giving the name of company, dancers, copyright holder and link to the website for the video or company. All other use would be a copyright violation.

Also, I think the law has to change to make the online video sites liable for any violation of copyrights on their sites. Right now they can sneak out of harms way under cover of their disclaimers which say they don't permit copyright violations. But if the companies were assessed a set fine for every violation that remains for more than a set period of time, they would be a lot more strict about what's posted on their sites.

The sad thing is that most pirated films are not good quality. We'd all benefit much more if those pirate filmers would donate the money they spend on video cameras, tapes and bribes to the companies or towards funds for making DVDs, we'd all have a lot more legal, good quality film available.

Kate


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:11 am 
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Balanchine certainly changed his ballets minorly and majorly over his lifetime.

Yes, he did. And there’s Balanchine Foundation to see to it that choreography and costumes are being faithfully reproduced and that productions of his ballets don’t fall below certain standard. Danes guard the heritage of Bourneville rather jealously. And so they should. But the works of Marius Petipa, perhaps the greatest choreography that ever lived, are being scavenged by fame hungry wanna-bes.

I believe that it is reasonable to require certain level of authenticity from modern choreographers who undertake thankless task of revising classics. And don’t hesitate to put their name in front of that who is the true creator of masterpieces such as Swan Lake, La Bayadere and The Sleeping Beauty. If this is not a violation of copyright, I don’t know what it.

Problem of pirated videos certainly looks small in comparison with what we dare to loose.

* * *


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