public forum
home forum magazine gallery links about faq courtesy
It is currently Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:44 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 143 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 10  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Dancing Men (& Boys)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 11:01 pm
Posts: 11
Location: El Granada CA 94018
Azlan,<BR> Thank You for posting the bit on men in Modern dance. I was beginning to wonder if this was a Ballet thread.<p>[This message has been edited by Whirlwind (edited March 07, 2002).]

_________________
Always remember that life is just a game and you need to keep playing!<BR>


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dancing Men (& Boys)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2002 3:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 12:01 am
Posts: 5
Location: Canada
I am a 23 year old male dancer with a Russian professional as my teacher. He tells me that for even most companies to accept you, that you must say u r gay or atleast be gay positive. I found that as far as he his concerned the whole dance world is very gay centred. He tells me of the stories from the Ukraine, Koln- Germany and it's all the same. So I wonder where does this attitude come from and why is it so important to some. I am a straight male with a girlfriend and just because I dance it means I have to embrace the gay world with open arms?? Any thoughts?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dancing Men (& Boys)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2002 10:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2001 11:01 pm
Posts: 8612
Location: El Granada, CA, USA
If you are homophobic this is not the world for you. There are many gay men in dance, but they are by no means all gay, and you don't have to be gay to "make it". In dance you work very closely with many different types of people, and you need to have an open mind to other lifestyles.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dancing Men (& Boys)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2002 2:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2002 12:01 am
Posts: 75
Wow. Talk about magnifacent leaps. Not condoning a gay lifestyle does not equate to either homophobia or closed mindedness.<P>Danseur 101, ultimately you are talking about differences in lifestyle. There are similarities and differences in everybodies lifestyle. It is possible for people who may disapprove of each others' lifestyles to develop good working relations. Success depends on the degree to which you and the other person are willing to keep your private life seperate from your work life. <P>Keys to any good relationship include respect, honesty, consistency, and sacrifice. (1) Relations exist between people, not lifestyles. If you can respect others, then chances are others will respect you. (2) There are always behaviors which we find acceptable and those which we find unacceptable. Do not hesitate to clearly establish what you do or do not find acceptable in your relationships. Respect the boundries that others establish. And, insist that your boundries also be respected. (3) Do not cross the boundries you set. (4) If there is an area of conflict, be prepared to negotiate for a mutually satisfactory resolution.

_________________
I must create a system or be enslaved by another mans; I will not reason and compare: my business is to create. (William Blake)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dancing Men (& Boys)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2002 4:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 12:01 am
Posts: 1876
Location: New England
Danseur101... You're not in Ukraine or Germany, you're in Canada.<P>In America, we have workplace non-discrimination laws, which are taken quite seriously in the corporate world. The dance world seems to be less aware of them and flouts them all the time; however, in theory they apply just as well in the dance world.<P>For example, it is illegal to ask about sexual orientation at an interview (or audition). If you're asked such a question, you can haul the employer into court, especially if you were not hired. The LAST thing a dance company can afford is a discrimination lawsuit.<P>It's also illegal to ask about age, although dance companies seem to get away with this one all the time. Maybe because dancers are so young and have little access to legal recourse. Still, it makes no sense; if someone has proven an ability to dance at an audition and you're hiring him or her for a one season contract, age really is not an issue.<P>The workplace is the workplace, and it centers around a common shared goal: in a dance company, that goal is to produce quality dance. Obviously, sexual orientation has nothing to do with that. In particular, the workplace is not a social environment. A workplace that does not operate that way is severly non-professional.<P>Outside of the workplace, you can choose to socialize with your co-workers, or with other people, or with no one. If all your co-workers are gay and only want to socialize with gay people, then you'll be best off looking elsewhere for a social life.<P>I have known gay men in our company to shun me because I was not gay (and am rather reserved as well); they may have perceived my normal reservedness as disapproval of their lifestyle. I've also know gay men in our company to be quite pleasant towards me. I don't socialize with anyone, gay or straight.<P>Ultimately, it is hard to see why any reasonable choreographer or artistic director would care who you socialize with outside of the studio, as long as you produce quality dance inside.<P>The one exception here is with the women: if you're going to go far in ballet as a man, you need to be able to gain the trust of women in partnering. Part of that is skill and experience in how you hold them, how you keep them on balance, how you make them look good, etc. But there's a certain moxy that goes along with it as well. If the women really can't stand you and don't trust you as a partner, then the artistic director will have a hard time hiring you.<P>However, you'd have to be pretty extreme: I knew a guy once who never used deoderant and smelled TERRIBLE, and his partner STILL loved dancing with him because he was good at partnering.<P>In my experience, the women seem to care a LOT less about the sexual orientation of the men in the company than the men do.<P>So I just wouldn't worry about it. Be yourself, dance well, and don't worry.<BR>


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dancing Men (& Boys)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2002 6:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 12:01 am
Posts: 5
Location: Canada
I guess some are quick to offend...it was not my intention. I have no quams with people's choice of lifestyle and I know and hang out with several gay individuals. It simply is not an issue with me. I was more concerned with the seemingly over interest of the subject as far as my teacher is concerned. I am indeed in Canada and I can only guess how it works in Russia. He danced with the Russian Vaganova Company and he had some stories. I am not concerned with peoples lifestyle choices and I only care to dance my best. Thanks for your advice everyone and I look forward to contributing more to this forum!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dancing Men (& Boys)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2002 8:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2002 12:01 am
Posts: 75
Hmmm .. I hope I didn't come off as offended. It's sometimes hard to guage other peoples repsonses. Until I arrived here, I didn't realize just how much I depend on body language, tone, and such in conversation.<P>As Citibob points out, dance companies exist to produce quality dance. I seriously doubt that any professional dance company is really going to be all that concerned about peoples personal lives.<P>Still, if you want to know, you are not limited to what your teacher tells you, to what anyone here might tell you, or to what you or I might guess. You can write the company. Express your concerns regarding the discriminatory policies that were told to you. Ask for a statement from them regarding their actual policies.

_________________
I must create a system or be enslaved by another mans; I will not reason and compare: my business is to create. (William Blake)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dancing Men (& Boys)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2002 5:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 12:01 am
Posts: 1876
Location: New England
I was not offended; this is hot-button issue, but ultimately, in this case, it's a simpler issue of workplace non-discrimination.<P>Even if many companies act in non-discriminatory ways, the stories of Danseur101's teacher must be assumed to be true. Thay may not be as pervasive as his teacher implies, but they cannot simply be discounted. Danseur101 has also mentioned what he thinks is his teacher's over-riding concern over what may not be such a big issue; that's a bit strange as well.<P>Say more if you like, but please remember that children as young as 14 read this forum.<BR>


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dancing Men (& Boys)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2002 5:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2001 12:01 am
Posts: 207
Location: Lighting Heaven
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><I>Wow. Talk about magnifacent leaps. Not condoning a gay lifestyle does not equate to either homophobia or closed mindedness.</I><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, yeah, it does.<P>...Because if a person is <I>not</I> homophobic or closed-minded, then condoning or not condoning someone else's lifestyle isn't even an issue.

_________________
"A man's speech must exceed his vocabulary, or what's a metaphor?"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dancing Men (& Boys)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2002 9:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2001 11:01 pm
Posts: 8612
Location: El Granada, CA, USA
Agreed. <P>I was only trying to say that if you can't respect a co-worker because of their sexual orientation, dance is probably not the best career for you because of how closely dancers must work with each other.<P>I know performers who had to leave the performing arts specifically for this reason. They could not reconcile their abhorrence of the homosexual lifestyle with their desire to perform. I found this to be ridiculously sad. They were denying thier talents for close-mindedness.<P>I was also trying to say that your sexual orientation (whatever it is) is not as much of an issue as your teacher seems to say it is. At least not in the numerous companies I've worked with.<P>But I think we've gotten off-topic.<p>[This message has been edited by LMCtech (edited March 09, 2002).]


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dancing Men (& Boys)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2002 10:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2002 12:01 am
Posts: 75
CITIBOB, I'm not sure I agree that the stories should be assumed true. I might agree that they should be assumed valid within the teacher perspective. There are many things which must be considered in trying to gain a better understanding. Danseur101 should consider his own thoughts and feelings and how these might affect his understanding of the stories his teacher tells. He should consider the teachers thoughts and feelings and how these might have affected the teachers understanding of the events in the story. He should also consider the environment which gave rise to those thoughts and feelings. And so on.<P>As for the presence of children, I am attempting to focus on the treatment of social issues in general. Not only is the specific issue extremely sensitive, there is also the presence of younger teens as you mention. If I say anything which you consider inappropriate, please to not hesitate to let me know either here or by email. I will edit as necessary.<BR>**********************<P>TOM SKELTON and LMCtech, please let me clarify my position.<P>Homophobia implies an irrational fear or aversion to homosexuals or homosexuality. Closed minded implies an unresponsive disposition. <P>Condoning a lifestyle means to voluntarily overlook that lifestyle.<P>An individuals behavior in private is a private issue. An individuals behavior in public is a public issue. The moment an individual choses to interact with me socially, then any behaviors involved in that interaction are social issues between me and that individual. A "lifestyle" is nothing more than a collection of behaviors. An individuals lifestyle becomes a social issue to the extent that that lifestyle plays a role in social interaction.<P>Now, I could care less what people do in the privacy of their own homes. However, in terms of issues which affect either me or those I care about, I am not willing to overlook those issues. I do not condone any behavior which I feel adversely affects me or those I care about.<P>Because I see something as potentially having an adverse affect on me or on those I care about does not necessarilly mean that I have a fear or aversion to it. Even in cases where I do have a fear or aversion towards something it does not necessarilly follow that my fear or aversion is irrational. The concept that my failing to condone something implies a phobia towards that something is a fallacy.<P>I am also quite open to discussing any issue. I can be convinced that things that I thought might have an adverse affect do not in fact have such an affect. I can be convinced that things that I thought might not have an adverse affect do in fact have such an affect. The concept that my unwillingness to overlook an issue implies that I am close minded in regards to that issue is also a fallacy.<P>There are many types of behaviors which I do not condone. More accurately, it is certain behaviors under certain conditions that I do not condone. The fact that I do not condone a behavior in no way implies that I am being irrational and closed minded. <P>The concept that a person who does not overlook an issue is being either irrational or close minded is a fallacy. The argument lends nothing to resolving the issue at hand. The argument blocks open and rational discussion of the issues by refocusing attention away from the issues and onto the person who refuses to overlook the issue.<P>In my experience, such abuse of language is generally perpetrated by individuals seeking to control discussion of an issue. I see two possibilities for such behavior. The first is as a reactive response to fear of discussing the issue. Since I can find no reason for fearing any open discussion, I consider such fears to be irrational. The second is as a proactive manipulation by closed minded individuals. In both cases, I find the misuse of terms such as "homophobic" and "close minded" to be an act of hypocracy.<P>Hypocracy is one of the few things which I do not condone. I see it as a social disease, and as an underlying cause of many of the social problems which exist in the world.<P>Please keep in mind that I am not saying you are hypocrites. I cannot see into your minds. All I can do is attempt to determine the meaning of what is written and attempt to establish some value to it. I do not see any value in LMCtech's use of either the term "homophobic" or "close minded" except as a means of control. Thus, my first impression is that their statement is not only a fallacy, but in all probability also an act of hypocracy. I am, of course, open to alternative explanations. But, until I am conviced otherwise, I see the use of these terms as abusive and improper and cannot simply overlook them. <P>(I suppose, by your definitions, this makes me "hypocraphobic" and "closed minded". Still, the use of such terms contributes nothing of value).

_________________
I must create a system or be enslaved by another mans; I will not reason and compare: my business is to create. (William Blake)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dancing Men (& Boys)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2002 10:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2002 12:01 am
Posts: 75
LMCtech, I just read your most recent response. I did get the general gist of your post. My issue was with what I percieve as a misuse of the terms "homophobic" and "close minded". While it is true that there are many people who are "homophobic" and "close minded", such things cannot simply be inferred from anything that Danseur101 wrote. <P>Also, while I can see the possibility that your remarks were not intended to be taken personally, they were still stated in such a way that they are easily percieved as personal.<P>This is off topic, and I'll gladly take it to another thread. I do consider it important, not only as a general social issue, but also an issue relating to this forum.

_________________
I must create a system or be enslaved by another mans; I will not reason and compare: my business is to create. (William Blake)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dancing Men (& Boys)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 7:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 12:01 am
Posts: 5
Location: Canada
Well my answer really does not go answered very well. I did apparently hit on a very sensitive topic for some..although I am not sure why. We see it (lesbian & gay) everyehere in our culture (Canadian). It is openly discussed and not really something that people get all flustered about, so it amazes me how some people can take this subject so negatively. I was simply trying to understand the mind of my teacher and hope that someone had some helpful experience that they could offer. Fear not and lets continue further discussion


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dancing Men (& Boys)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2002 9:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2002 12:01 am
Posts: 75
I apologize. I should have kept myself to the subject. I am perhaps to easily "flustered" by what I percieve as attempts to inhibit open communication. I have never really understood why any social issue cannot be discussed openly.<BR>********************<P>Back to the discussion. There are alot of unknowns. And, I have no experience with ballet. All I can do is offer suggestions relating to social issues and perhaps dig a little for information. (I am currently studying the social aspects of dance, so I also gain from exploring these things).<P>Anyhow, there does seem to have been a period where gay themes were trendy in Russian theatre. So, I suppose it might have been important to make sure dancers were comfortable with such things.<P>Also, some places such as the Bolshoi Theatre are favorite gathering places for the gay communties in Russia. There are also many theatres which specifically cater to the gay community.<P>Does any of this help?

_________________
I must create a system or be enslaved by another mans; I will not reason and compare: my business is to create. (William Blake)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dancing Men (& Boys)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2002 8:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 12:01 am
Posts: 5
Location: Canada
Ok, that helps some more. I think I have a pretty good idea where he is coming from now and I can be a little more at ease with his questions, stories etc..<P>Thanks Again!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 143 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 10  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
The messages in this forum are posted by members of the general public and do not reflect the opinions or beliefs of CriticalDance or its staff.
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group