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 Post subject: Education / Training
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2000 7:09 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 11:01 pm
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Location: New Zealand
Do you see Education and Training as separate dance concepts? Do you believe there are common and distinctive features of each ?


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 Post subject: Re: Education / Training
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2000 11:02 pm 
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hooooowooooo! a biggie, tip-toes! Image

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 Post subject: Re: Education / Training
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2000 1:21 am 
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i am determined to have at least a brief spontaneous response to this, without too much thought, and without looking up any notes or books!<P>with the difference between the vocational and the other approach to education being a hot topic in education circles over recent years in australia (and no doubt whichever country YOU are in), i have read so much about this...but prefer to try to avoid the jargon, and speak in everyday terms.<P>to me, 'training' means the cultivation of a skill, i.e purposefully focused knowledge and skill acquisition (knowledge being stuff you KNOW, and skills being stuff you can DO)....i like to keep things simple..... Image<P>whereas, 'education' is a much broader concept (resisting urge to open a dictionary, here....).... education is learning, with a broad general goal of being human.....(or in animal terms, of survival and comfort...)..not meaning to confuse things there, but also not wanting to suggest that only humans learn....<P>the vocational approach to schooling/learning aims to create people with a useable skill or skills - someone 'trained' to DO something specific.<P>the liberal/educational/holistic approach is broader, less specifically goal-oriented.....<P>that's all i'm gonna say at this point (i can guess where this is going...but let's wait and see!) Image

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 Post subject: Re: Education / Training
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2000 1:28 am 
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oops! "dance concepts".....<P>ah, well then:<P>training: skill acquisition (technique, group co-operation, stagecraft, the standards and norms of the profession, etc)<P>education: all the contextual stuff - dance history, dance appreciation, repertoire (apart from just learning the steps), music theory or analysis (as opposed to rhythmic movement skills, which i would put in training), ...<P>of course, HOW MUCH of the contextual stuff is necessary to inform and amplify the skills 'training' of a profesional dancer is a question of opinion and balance, which everyone may differ on....<P>and you may not be looking at this from the point of view of the dancer's training....

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 Post subject: Re: Education / Training
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2000 3:22 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 11:01 pm
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Location: Pa, USA
I was just waiting for that word "contextual" to pop up! A quick reply here (again--no thought involved in this!) I agree with grace in her defining the two different concepts of education and training, but just wanted to add that I feel education is learning the information and training is learning to USE the information. It can be (for some students) a world of difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Education / Training
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2000 3:24 pm 
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worth highlighting as something to chew on, i think! Image<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>education is learning the<BR> information and training is learning to USE the information.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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 Post subject: Re: Education / Training
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2000 3:26 pm 
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a second thought on that, jan: your phrase above, suggests that education must precede or underpin training, whereas of course one CAN be 'trained' to do tasks, withOUT education.....

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 Post subject: Re: Education / Training
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2000 5:07 pm 
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Location: Pa, USA
hmmm........interesting observation on my words there grace *S* i think that training must compliment the education--therefore (to my way of thinking) education is always taking place, but training is not necessarily (sp?) as well--training is learning to use your education--is that better?


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 Post subject: Re: Education / Training
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2000 5:28 pm 
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gosh, i don't know...it's not about 'better' - i'm just musing..... Image

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 Post subject: Re: Education / Training
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2000 3:29 am 
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*S* I meant does that better express my view to you--I will recap:<P>Education is learning the information.<BR>Training is learning to use the information that has been absorbed/learned/memorized/etc.<BR>(meaning that training can only happen after some amount of education has taken place)<P>in the case of the tendu:<BR>Education is learning what a tendu is, how it is executed, why we do tendus, and the aspects affecting tendus (hip placement/arms/etc.)<P>Training is taking all of that knowledge (plus the knowledge garnered from other resources/steps/movements) and putting it together so when the audience sees the tendu it is a beautiful and awe-inspiring movement, not just a pre-thought-out mechanical reaction to the change of weight placement.<P>ok--I think that is what I mean to say, although as my mental education is never complete and my training of my cranial area ongoing, this view may evolve and change into a more (or less) complex idea later. *S*<BR>


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 Post subject: Re: Education / Training
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2000 4:39 am 
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well, i keep thinking of something i wrote last year, when re-setting the ballet theory component of a ballet society's examinations.<P>i can't FIND it, of course! ...... Image<P>OK, here it is - i only really mean the first bit, where i made a similar distinction for the teachers, so they would understand what we are assessing - that the 'theory' section, now called 'Knowledge & Understanding', is NOT just about being able to rote-memorise half a dozen French terms for the duration of the exam, and then forget them!<P>but i have left in a bit more here, for interest, and because it helps to illustrate the distinction between (in this case) 'knowledge', 'understanding' and 'skills'. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><U>Knowledge And Understanding of Ballet</U></B><P><BR><B>Learning</B> can be broadly separated into knowledge and skills. <BR><B>Knowledge</B> underpins and enables skills.<BR><B>Skills</B> are the practical application of knowledge.<P>Ballet <U>knowledge</U> is assessed together with the <U>understanding</U> which will enable that knowledge to be applied to dancing. <BR><U>Skills</U> are assessed in the 'doing' - the practical application of that knowledge.<P>All criteria are assessed in the same examination session, where the candidate demonstrates their skills, and displays or is queried on their knowledge and understanding, by the teacher and/or the examiner.<P>Knowledge questions assess ballet terminology (French to English, & English to French). Understanding questions assess the comprehension and application of terminology, and safe correct ballet technique awareness.<P>Both the teaching and the assessing of these criteria need to be flexibly adjusted, by the teacher and by the examiner, to the age and stage of the candidate (i.e. the phrasing of questions, the pronunciation of terms, the level of enquiry).<P>*Note that there are not set questions and there are no set answers. Any answer which is true is acceptable (-candidates can surprise with an unexpected but accurate answer !).<P>Likewise, allowance needs to be made for differing pronunciations (by teachers and examiners), particularly of foreign-language words, and it is acknowledged that ballet terminology is often not a direct translation from the French, but rather an adaptation of a French word, over a period of common usage in international ballet.<P>Pronunciation guidelines are offered, based on current common usage in Australia. Meanings of terms are offered as commonly used, not as specific translations.<P>The examination is not a language examination; rather we aim to encourage the dancer to be articulate, to be able to verbalise about dance, and to interpret oral (as well as demonstrated) instructions.<P>Each level includes <P>· positions or actions (from that grade's syllabus) to demonstrate,<BR>· terms to interpret (English to French & French to English),<BR>· and connection of theory to practice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P><BR> <P><BR> <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by grace (edited September 29, 2000).]

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 Post subject: Re: Education / Training
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2000 8:28 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 11:01 pm
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Location: BC , Canada
Could get totally shot down here :-)<P>I have been thinking about this subject since it first appeared. Thinking in circles, thinking in squares...What what what is the main outstanding difference between Educating a student & training a student.<P>Then I went to play fetch & this came to me.<P>I can train my dog...but can I educate her?<P>She can roll over, beg, sit, lie down, fetch a ball, heal, stay...I can believe that there is an intelligance behind those big loving eyes that makes my dog capable of learning...but am I educating her or am I training her..what is the difference? Does she know that when I tell her to stay it is for her own safety, that if she were to run out she may get hit by a car? Can she use reason to apply the lesson on her own? Nope, but she can stay when I tell her to. She is quite well trained.<P>Now I believe that this method of training does exist in some studios/schools....they can teach the student the movement, the movement quality, the name of the movement. Then it is left at that so the students could be said to be trained. They can do the trick, they can get the treat. But do they understand why they are doing it, <P>Understanding why they are doing it, being able to apply the movement to another movement, when it is appropriate,<P>ie: I can teach a student to plie, I can teach them to plie before they saute & after they saute...but if they do not understand the importance of the plie then they are trained and not educated.<P>The difference comes in the understanding.<P>Now, what was the question again?

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 Post subject: Re: Education / Training
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2000 11:28 pm 
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well said, rabbit! <P>(i believe magicians train them, don't they?) Image

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 Post subject: Re: Education / Training
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2000 10:37 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 11:01 pm
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Location: New Zealand
Rabbit - my thoughts exactly !.<P>I had been thinking along the same lines. A sheep - dog is trained to do a set task - rounds up sheep. You have no idea how many times I have heard my hubby say 'this pup has brains !'<P>It is amazing when one begins to think beyond the obvious where ones thoughts are led. Until I read this I thought I was going round the bend on the Educate/train issue.<P>Lovely to chat with sane people here on this board.


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 Post subject: Re: Education / Training
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:31 pm 
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Location: San Diego, California, USA
This is a very interesting subject. I think that training is teaching "how to do the thing" - this is how you spot your turns, etc. This is what you need to know to execute the pirouette. <P>But, to me, education is what is a pirouette? How many different kinds of pirouettes are there? What is its history? How did it develop? Why would you choreograph a pirouette in this particular dance in this particular place in the music?<P>Training is - we begin ballet class with plies' - and this is how to do them.<P>Education is this is "why" we begin class with plies'. Here are the muscle groups involved in performing plies'. How long have dancers been doing plies'? You are part of the history - every dancer will begin her day with plies' no matter how great a dancer she is. <P>I think that training answers the question of "how". Education answers the quesiton of "why". <P>I was always fascinated with the why as well as the how. It gave me a feeling of being part of the continuum of dance over the centuries. It made me part of the community. And, it gave me a sense of being responsible for my very small corner of that community. Basheva


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