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 Post subject: Beginning Pointe: DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2000 11:50 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 12:01 am
Posts: 2208
Location: Australia
oops! Image Image Image<P>i deleted it!<P>ducking, to avoid all the stuff being thrown, around the globe, by angry or frustrated participants....<P>really sorry, evryone.....i was trying to make the thread load faster, by moving both tuk's and lugo's wonderful articles into separate threads from the actual discussion - but tuk's was the first post in the thread, so the whole thread got deleted........i don't think the discussion can be salvaged, but at least we still have the excellent articles........<P>please anyone, feel free to make any comments you like.......profanity will be deleted!<P>btw, there is a SLIM chance that azlan MAY be able to resurrect SOME of the discussion when he wakes up in about 6 hours, depending on when he last did a back up........azlan?<P><B><BIG><BIG>REALLY</BIG></BIG> <BIG><big><BIG>SORRY....</big></BIG></BIG></B> Image<P>please have a look back here tomorrow, and see if we've got anything left to show you.....<P><p>[This message has been edited by grace (edited September 06, 2000).]

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 Post subject: Re: Beginning Pointe: DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2000 11:20 am 
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Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Well, in case anyone's still interested, I'll post the links I'd just stuck up last night - I doubt anyone got to see them before Grace slipped and spilled the coffee. Image Don't worry, Grace, I'm not crying, or even remotely ticked. <P>Ahhhhh - yes, here we go:<P>Review of dance medicine literature - <A HREF="http://home.worldnet.fr/~aguierre/" TARGET=_blank>http://home.worldnet.fr/~aguierre/</A> <P>and a dance teacher's page on when she thinks young toedancers ought to be allowed into pointe shoes - see the section "a letter to parents" though her entire site is about pointe shoes - <A HREF="http://parkenet.org/jp/ttp/ttp02.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://parkenet.org/jp/ttp/ttp02.htm</A> <p>[This message has been edited by Priscilla (edited September 06, 2000).]


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning Pointe: DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2000 12:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 11:01 pm
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Location: Guildford, Surrey, UK
Hi<P> Just browsing through this post and haven't had chance to read all the info in depth but feel it is a very worthwhile topic to be discussing and providing more information on. Will read all articles in depth over weekend as they look really interesting and probably something all of us can use in teaching and in persuading those eager parents and students that pointe work may not be for them just yet.<P>This week i am following a fitness instructors course and a large part has been about bone ossification. Being reminded of the fact that total bone ossification does not take place until between the ages of 20-30 and that a child starts off with over 300 bones at birth which then fuse down into just over 200 really drives home the responsibility dance teachers have not to put their pupils on pointe before they are technically ready and before they have reached a sensible age.<P>I really wish all these tales of children on pointe at 7 or 8 were myths but I believe there must be some truth in it. Articles and post like this need to keep being reiterated on boards like this so that no teachers are tempted to rush a student onto pointe. It is hard when pupils and parents are threatening to leave - but is it worth ruining your reputation for?<P>Hopefully have some more input when I have had time to read all the articles properly.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning Pointe: DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2000 4:13 pm 
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Location: Australia
joanne - very excited to see your comment that you are right now learning about this very issue - how coincidental, and how fortunate for us! look forward to your comments. Image<P>priscilla, thanks so much. that pointe site link is a great one to have for reference in this thread. can you check again please, the first two links you have put up, as, once again, i can only get the last one.....which i really do appreciate. Image thank you.<P>like joanne, i decided to do a fitness leaders' course and a gym instruction course a few years ago, to complement my dance teaching knowledge. i felt it was becoming essential to crossover into different related disciplines, to pick out what another field has to offer, that is applicable to dance.<P>inevitably, with there being so much money put into sport, and so little into dance, it is the area of sports medicine (and research) where we as dance teachers can gain greatly by being open-minded, and by applying what we can. this is the way forward, i believe, for dance teaching - as opposed to the 'old' way which was based principally on passing on knowledge and methods that had been passed down to us.<P>constant questioning is essential to progress in any area. sometimes this means self-questioning, and perhaps realsing that we or our teachers may have done things 'wrong' in the past. we all do the best we can. it is only those who do not bother to keep up with current knowledge who can be faulted as irresponsible in their teaching approach. (unfortunately, there are far too many of these! and often they have the big successful schools! Image Image Image )<P>one of the things that excites me about internet dance boards is the opportunity to share knowledge advances, so that we all become informed more quickly. tuk has made a good contribution here, and so did lugo. it is a testament to its value, that people at danceart boards copied and save lugo's post, even though it was written more than a year ago, and that there is a regular need to re-cycle it. by writing it, she (like tuk) has really done dance teachers (and the dissemination of valuable information) a service. thanks to both! Image

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 Post subject: Re: Beginning Pointe: DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2000 4:29 pm 
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I like this Pointe Web Site from Gaynor Minden.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.dancer.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.dancer.com/</A> <P>There is a lot of good information there.<P>


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning Pointe: DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2000 4:59 pm 
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Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Grace - I checked the first one and it was ok, but the second one was a link directly to the letter to students and parents page, which didn't work so well. I just removed it - as you can see, and recommended readers click to the letter from her main page. <P>


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning Pointe: DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2000 8:42 am 
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Location: Guildford, Surrey, UK
Going slightly off the subject of beginning pointe but picking up on the course i am doing this week which sound similar to one Grace did a couple of years ago. It is always good to diversify, I think - this course had made me look in a lot more depth at the basic anatomy my dance training has given me and how all the factors of the individual will affect what we as dance teachers/fitness instructors can do with them. Very relevant to the piinte work debate.<P>Also the tutor has really pushed the health benefits of exercise (i.e reduced risk of heart disease, osteoporosis) and how we should educate our pupils in this. This is something we as teachers probably all know but how many times do we use this knowledge and pass it on to our pupils - both for their own satisfaction and for our business.<P>basically we have spent years and a lot of time and money educated ourselves on how we should train dancers effectively and safely but we very rarely pass this knowledge on. I am thinking of having a folder at my studio listing the health benefits and putting information like the debate on pointe work so that any interested parties can look at.<P>We have worked hard to achieve our knowledge - it is our duty to pass this on and hopefully increase our success as teachers at the same time.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning Pointe: DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2000 5:33 pm 
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priscilla, all i get here is a blank white page. Image anyone else able to get it?<BR> <A HREF="http://home.worldnet.fr/~aguierre/" TARGET=_blank>http://home.worldnet.fr/~aguierre/</A><P>i also just tried going through here:<BR> <A HREF="http://home.worldnet.fr" TARGET=_blank>http://home.worldnet.fr</A> <P>(it's a french site of personal home pages, amongst other things)<P>and doing a search at the site for:<P>'aguierre'<P>but got this message:<P>"Désolé, il n'y a pas encore de MyWeb commençant par 'aguierre'..." <P>so i searched all the 'A' sites (being as how i don't trust the message!) and all the "G" sites: not there either.....<P>so i'm stumped. <P>later note: **priscilla, thanks for your other suggestion to me, but that also gets me the same white page.**<p>[This message has been edited by grace (edited September 07, 2000).]

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 Post subject: Re: Beginning Pointe: DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2000 4:18 am 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am thinking of having a folder at my studio listing the health benefits and putting<BR> information like the debate on pointe work so that any interested parties can look at.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>great idea, joanne - trouble is, i've found these things lie around unopened. not unlike my bulletin board, that neither the kids or the parents ever read!<P>nevertheless, that's NOT a reason not to do it. it's a responsible move, that's for sure. when i put kids on pointe we have explanation sessions for parents as well as the kids, and they get handouts to take home and read, as well - probably more info than many people would want to know, but at least i can say 'i TOLD you so'! Image<P>in previous years i had a physiotherapist come to a session at the studio, with the kids & the parents. that way it was cheaper, than each kid going to see him, and it was edcational for the parents as he examined their various relevant muscular capabilities and reported on those to the parents. the parents appreciated the trouble we went to, as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Beginning Pointe: DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2000 8:18 pm 
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Thank You for this link. <A HREF="http://parkenet.org/jp/ttp/ttp01.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://parkenet.org/jp/ttp/ttp01.htm</A> <BR>The author makes some very good pointes which would be helpful to the student and to her parents. This is interesting -"Another different feeling is a lessening of depth in demi-plié. This happens<BR> because the ribbons constrict the ankle joint and the snug shoe prevents the foot<BR> from spreading out as it does in ballet slippers or barefoot." The Questions and Answer page is a good idea too. What do you think about the way she says to sew on the ribbons in here? <A HREF="http://parkenet.org/jp/ttp/ttp09.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://parkenet.org/jp/ttp/ttp09.htm</A> <BR>


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning Pointe: DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2000 3:28 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2000 11:01 pm
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Location: San Diego, California, USA
When I was teaching there was one subject on which no amount of entreaty on the part of either students or parents would change my mind - and that was when to begin pointe. My rule was never before the age of 12 years old. (Assuming of course there had been adequate training before that age). <P>To underscore my reasoning I used the book "Anatomy and the Ballet" by Celia Sparger. On page 75-77 there are pictures of x-rays of the feet of youngsters at 4 yrs. old, 11 yrs. old and 19 yrs. old. One can see the growth and ossification that takes place during those years. I showed this to both parents and children. <P>You can't argue with your skeleton I would tell them. I will not participate in harming your child, I would tell the parents. Most parents were grateful. Belive it or not - there were a few parents (mothers particularly) who threatened to take their daughters to another teacher. So be it. My conscience is clear. Basheva<p>[This message has been edited by ORZAK (edited September 28, 2000).]


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning Pointe: DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:34 pm 
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Location: Australia
Basheva: i am beginning to see that you are a master of the 'sound-bite':<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>You can't argue with your skeleton!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Image

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 Post subject: Re: Beginning Pointe: DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2000 8:18 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 11:01 pm
Posts: 69
Location: BC , Canada
Quote:<BR>"I am thinking of having a folder at my studio listing the health benefits and putting<BR>information like the debate on pointe work so that any interested parties can look at."<BR>___________________________________<P>This is something that I have done for years. I gave a binder filled with this information. Also inside that binder is information on how pointe shoes are made,<BR>A list of the many different brands of pointe shoes & a pointe shoe fitting guide.<P>At the meeting I have with the parent and student who is about to begin training on pointe , I give them this book to read together. It has been very well recieved.<BR>Much of the information in this book was gleaned from the internet ie: the pointe shoe fitting guide, Lugos's Post. It is really easy to put together.

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 Post subject: Re: Beginning Pointe: DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:36 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2000 11:01 pm
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Location: San Diego, California, USA
Grace - sooooooooo maybe I should run for political office - and give up on this dancing gig? Nope - don't think so - LOL<P>Basheva


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 Post subject: Re: Beginning Pointe: DISCUSSION THREAD
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2000 8:11 am 
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Location: Ontario, Canada
I live fairly close to Toronto, and there is at least one store there probably 2) that is VERY strict about not selling pointe shoes to students they feel are not ready...both stores have printed information on the topic too.<P>Apparently one girl from my daughter's studio went to one store last year to buy her first pair...teacher had actually sent them to this store...and the store refused to sell to this young dancer. I think the teacher here was a little embarrased (to say the least)... the dancer's mom guesses there was a mis-understanding about the purpose of the shoes...(teacher said they would only be doing demi pointe work?) <P>It seems to me that maybe the teacher in question and probably others around here) should have some significant parent communication before the girls go off to buy the first pair of shoes. There is so much for the parent to know, even once you get past the hurdle of whether or not the child is ready. For example, does the average parent realize that the right "fit" can be quite elusive and expensive? Or, that pointe shoes are NOT like street shoes and shouldn't be sold to someone else after you're finished with them...the things I hear in the waiting room!!! (Last week there was a mom who didn't know that you should get the shoes fitted while wearing whatever padding you chose...she thought it could just be added afterward. this can work, I suppose but why would you risk it?). <P>


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