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 Post subject: economics
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2000 7:37 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2000 11:01 pm
Posts: 39
Location: usa
my moving to a new area also brought up<BR>a topic and a little tension w/some<BR>colleages, <BR>one employmer i teach for is in very affluent area,<BR>parents all talk about being<BR>free,creative,etc..very montessori school.<BR>students not very respectful of adults/teachers, no receitals, only showings of"performances"<BR>My 2nd job in an area that is the complete<BR>opposite. typical tap,ballet,jazz,acro w/end<BR>of year receital. students much more interested and hardworking.<BR>do you think more affluent areas have more disinterested students who are enrolled"because it is the thing to do" and lesser income areas view<BR>the arts as a luxury and take the time and<BR>money investment more seriously.<BR>do you think the owner/director sets the tone<BR>re students respecting all the teachers in<BR>the school, not just the ones they take class with?<BR>


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 Post subject: Re: economics
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2000 10:02 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 11:01 pm
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Location: San Diego, California, USA
J - with respect to your questions - YES YES and YES<P>I do think that children know when their parents have to make a sacrifice in order for them to take lessons of dance (or music etc.) and the children respect that. I know that is how it was when I was young - I KNEW my parents sacrificed for me. So the thing they bought whether it was a toy - or clothes became precious and I tried to take care of it. But, I also think that when it comes easily to the parents it also comes easily to the children. When a child knows that the parent really had to save up to buy the ballet slippers - those children, in my experience, know they have to take care of those ballet slippers. But, even a well off parent can still teach their children to value the lessons and to respect the teacher. <P>I well remember one very wealthy mother - as she walked away with her daughter saying "well she is ONLY a ballet teacher" - as if being a ballet teacher was somehow not to be respected. <P>As parents, we want to give our children things - but the greatest thing we can give our children - is free - and that is how to treat others. Which is probably the greatest gift of all. <P>As for the tone of the studio - I think it is set by many people - a respectful attitude comes from the owner, the teachers, and the parents all showing respect to one another. Children are very sensitive to that. They pick up signals - afterall that's their "job" as children - to learn from us.<p>[This message has been edited by Basheva (edited October 24, 2000).]


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 Post subject: Re: economics
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2000 10:40 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2000 11:01 pm
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Location: usa
Thank you for your comments and your understanding of the question.<BR>i'm not a parent so i find some of the situations i encounter pretty interesting.<BR>I find that in studio #1, the kids have done<BR>so much by the time they are preteens there<BR>is no line that says your're the child, we're<BR>the adults,unless i'm just getting old! <P><BR>


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 Post subject: Re: economics
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2000 12:43 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA USA
Good topic--some of the most interested and motivated students I've had were "at risk" kids....who appreciated what we were offering and didn't "take it for granted".....the arts were a rare privelege for them...but I've also taught in wealthy, pre-professional conservatories where the kids were also extremely serious and focused. It depends on the faculty, school atmosphere, parental attitudes towards the arts (as a necessity of society and a viable professional pursuit). These attitudes are interesting to think about.


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 Post subject: Re: economics
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2000 3:43 pm 
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Location: San Diego, California, USA
There are certainly no generalizations that apply to such a broad group as the "haves" and the "have nots". From what I have seen the children of both groups have problems - stresses and strains in life. <P>I did find that many times children from wealthier families seemed almost burdened down by scheduled activities - every hour seemed to be accounted for with some kind of lessons - dance, music, gymnastics, soccer, etc. Of course regular school and home work. There didn't seem to be time to just be a child. They seemed tired a lot. They would come into ballet class already tired. With another lesson in something else after ballet class and then homework later that evening. I remember those harried parents )mostly mothers) sitting in the corridors waiting to drive the kids to the next lesson.<P>The thing that really astonished me in my experience, to some degree in private studios, and to a very great degree at a performing arts high school, was the lack of respect for an adult. When I demanded respect they seemed shocked - like it was a "new" thing for them - and for some of them it surely was!!!<P>A VERY large part of what I was taught at home was respect for my teachers - whether I liked the teacher or not - I HAD to speak and act respectfully. Some of the situations I came across in the high school - and this was a relatively select group of kids - of all ethnic groups - were truly beyond belief. One of these days I am going to start a thread on teaching in a performing arts high school.<P>


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 Post subject: Re: economics
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2000 1:56 am 
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Location: italy
During my 20 years of teaching I've learnt not to generalize at all. I've had students coming from wealthy families who were absolutely involved and respectful of what they were doing and students coming form poor families who weren't involved and respectful at all. And vice versa. <BR>But very often it happens that most of the problems are arisen from a student coming from an "intellectual family" (i.e. parents who are teachers themselves, or doctors or have some high degree). In this students I found the "she's only a ballet teacher" attitude Basheva wrote of. They didn'thave any respect (and I'm sure they behaved the same way at school, too). They felt "superior" to me and to their classmates. And it was impossible to talk with their mothers as they thought the same. Usually these students have strong personalities which influence the whole class. I was very strict with them in order to make them understand their limits but, unfortunately, I often failed ( Image) and at this point I was very happy when they retired. <BR>I agree with Basheva that today children are very often too much stressed by the huge amount of activities they have to do. And this their parents' fault.<BR>Two days ago, one of my students' mother told me that her daughter (6 y/o) is too much stressed, she's having a lot of physical problems and she's planning to retire. And the only extra-thing the child does is ballet! antoP.


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 Post subject: Re: economics
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2000 3:56 am 
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Location: Australia
teaching can really teach some lessons about society and about people, can't it, j?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>do you think the owner/director sets the tone<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> YES! i DO believe that attitudes in schools ARE set from the top down. you really can't fight against the attitude conveyed or established by whoever is i charge..i think trina brought up an example, quite a long time ago, of this.<P>i also agree with antoP that 'people are people' - all are different, no generalisations possible - although tendencies can emerge, particularly in different suburbs, as j seemed to be indicating....and in australia there IS a class association vis a vis dance (even though australia is a RELATIVELY classless society - or at least it used to be...).<P>the more affluent suburbs are more likely to support ballet and a stricter more disciplined environment - whereas the lower social strata suburbs are keener on 'flashier' dance - jazz, tap, song & dance, etc. <P>the inner-city trendy/fashionable suburbs with young university-educated parents, people who are artists themselves or writers or followers of free-thinking schooling - these are the ones who send their kids to ballet in atrocious outfits with hair out, and an 'apparently' rude attitude....unfortunate for the child, really, because often the child is quite unaware that s/he is coming across as 'difficult'...because their spontaneous behaviour is approved of at home...

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 Post subject: Re: economics
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2000 5:19 am 
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Location: San Diego, California, USA
In some households, and schools, children are encouraged to question everything. Asking questions is a good thing!!! But when it questions the authority of the adults in an insolent manner it is not a good thing. <P>I well remember one day when I was guest teaching and had set a combination and as I usually do, I asked "Any Questions?" and one young snip (about 11 yrs old) smirks at me and says "What makes you think you know the answers?" The class watched fascinated - I stood there very calmly, made absolute eye contact with her - and answered, "Try me!!" She fell silent. I had been dancing for decades before she was born. At her age she is just reflecting the behavior that she has been allowed in her home, in most probability. She had no concept of respect - the more's the pity for her as she travels through life.


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 Post subject: Re: economics
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2000 7:54 am 
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Posts: 39
Location: usa
it is interseting to read the responses as when i had the "respect" discussion w/the director her answer was,"they're kids" get over it.I thought the topic would generate no interest.<BR>I was upset that when i entered the reception area and said hello the kids didn't acknowledge me.Then i entered one day and said hello to a group of parents, same glazed over stare!I'm not upset anymore as i now know where it comes from. <BR>None of the children are "bad", but teaching social skills used to be taught if not in school but at home. you try in the studio but the time you have w/the kids is miniscule.<BR>I teach in a town that has been written up world wide as the place to live if you are looking for racial diversity, but there are 3 large studios in town,neither is diverse. i wonder if it's an unconcious decision on the directors part, or the parents who look into where to enroll their children <P><p>[This message has been edited by grace (edited October 26, 2000).]


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 Post subject: Re: economics
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2000 1:47 am 
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Location: Australia
well. my, my! take 24 hours 'off' and look how complicated things get!!! Image<P>this has certainly become a complex thread - maybe it's several threads? i might split it. if something that WAS here, isn't here any more, please DO go looking for it, OK? thanks!<P>anyway, re this:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Asking questions is a good thing!!! But when it questions the authority of the adults in an insolent manner it is not a good thing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>that's disconcerting and personally upsetting (the 'insolent manner' bit), as it comes across as directly NOT appreciating YOU. i understand that. <P>but in the dance class, there are plenty of other reasons NOT to ask (too many) questions - (which i know that 'we' all know perfectly well) - reasons like creating a good working pace, and not losing body 'warmth' and focusing on the task at hand, etc...so the child who is used to discussing everything before s/he agrees to do it, is a real liability in a dance class! <P>i think there is an element of the 'culture' of dance class, which has to be taught in this regard. the behaviour pattern which might suit the home, is, in this case, not one which will make for effective progress in the studio. <P>unfortunately, this may be perceived as a bad attitude from the teacher's point of view (haha! isn't teaching FUN sometimes! Image) all you can do is explain quietly, privately and firmly the REASONS WHY - so it isn't just perceived as teacher's 'domination', then stick to your guns calmly and firmly in the class!<P>i HAVE experienced this, and feel that each of us has to draw a line as to how and where we can effectively work - some stresses just aren't worth the money, no matter how badly you need it!<P>j - this sounds bad to me, and i hope it changes or you move on - it just gets you down so badly to be treated as the outsider. that brings up another point, actually - in the scenario you describe, at the very least the teachers have to stick together too, the same way the kids are doing. if the kids alienate you and the teachers are all too busy going in their own directions to support each other, then you just feel completely alone and unappreciated and unsupported - not good for one's emotional health! good luck! Image

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 Post subject: Re: economics
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2000 6:16 am 
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Location: San Diego, California, USA
I absolutely agree that the teachers must support one another whether from the same discipline or not. Children can be quite accomplished at dividing adults - playing them off against one another - ask any mother and father about that!! <P>Difficulties between adults should be resolved quietly between those adults, not in front or between the children/students. <P>Like you, J, I would really wonder about an atmosphere in which I was not welcomed by the other teachers. Teaching dance is difficult enough without "politics" and personalities interfering. <P>I was at a studio once where the jazz teacher was quietly telling her students that the tap teacher at the same studio was a poor teacher - and suggesting they go elsewhere for lessons. It disrupted the entire school and spilled over into every class. In the end, it actually killed a very large and otherwise successful dance studio.<P>As for questions being asked in class, every teacher sets the tone she is comfortable with. But, that never includes insolence, and when the student makes a point of disputing the authority of the teacher, that's insolence. Then the point of the quesiton is not to gather information, but to disrupt, in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: economics
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2000 12:41 pm 
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Location: usa
I'm new this and trying to fiqure out how to<BR>put a referenced quote above my post, but anyway, yes teachers divided is bad for ones self esteem, and i try to be supportive of my peers in all my positions and and handle any conflicts of opinons in private.<BR>I am now teaching more at a second studio<BR>and I feel good about being there, there's alot of give and take, especially w/the owners re sharing methods, etc.That's why i had origianlly posted about creating the syllabus. The directors there are open to<BR>ideas and it made me want to work harder because they express interset in the faculty.<BR>


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 Post subject: Re: economics
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2000 2:52 pm 
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Location: Australia
second studio certainly sounds like a better experience, j! Image<P>re the quoting: this is what you do.<P>type [QUOOOTE]immediately before what you want to quote - but spell it correctly as quote! Image that could be something you have copied and pasted from another post. and then at the end of the section you want to appear....you type the following which i have deliberately mis-spelled so it doesn't convert, OK?[/quooote]<P>just don't forget the forward slash inside the last brackets, and you'll have a better effect if you spell right, unlike me! Image<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>the point of the quesiton is not to gather information, but to disrupt, in my opinion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>understood, basheva. very often with teens its a confrontation, isn't it, a testing of you, a challenging....can be difficult to handle well, and usually needs some private re-inforcement, because when it's done publicly in the class (dontcha just LOVE that!), it's far from the ideal scenario to reach a mutually respectful accord between the teacher and student... Image<p>[This message has been edited by grace (edited October 26, 2000).]

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 Post subject: Re: economics
PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2000 12:49 pm 
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Posts: 2708
Location: Seattle, WA USA
yes, one certainly goes through a range of attitudes, up and down the ladder of social/cultural groups! When I was a university professor, I was treated with the utmost deferrence by my colleagues, most often men who were old enough to be my father! Now that I teach primarily in studios, it is often an accomplishment to get students/people to say hello and make pleasant small talk (although I teach now in a studio which is just delightful, with nice people; it hasn' always been that way, though)...the bottom line is "it's not about you, it's about them"! I am still a good teacher (even better now than I was 10 years ago) and good person with a lot to offer...If people are intelligent and receptive they will accept and seek out what you have to offer as a teacher. If they don't, it's their own loss! And they're wasting their money and time to boot!


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