<B>bek</B>posted the following in ISSUES forum, where the washington kirov school was being discussed from the financial backing point of view. i have moved it here for more interest in the lifestyle aspects, from parents, teachers, and students.....thanks, bek! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The first year the Kirov school opened...two of my graduates (extremely gifted kids) went (against my better judgment...but that didn't matter) to this school.<BR>It was named something else at the time.<BR>Since then I have had a few other students switch to this school after graduation.<P><BR>In the USA we have very few "sleep-away" dance schools.<BR>The students that study ballet/dance here take ballet at their local levels till one of two things happen:<BR>1: they reach a certain age, and quit.<BR>2: they are gifted enough to join a professional school that is affiliated with a company that is located somewhere in the this county.<P>This second thing happens usually at ages 12-15 yrs old.<BR>Most students MUST be at a professional summer program by 15 or lose ground, or recognition to their competition.<BR>Most kids will start to go "out" during the years of 13-14.<BR>They spend the summer for 4-6 weeks at a school.<P>Example: SAB: where they will get two to *if lucky* three classes per day.<BR>SFB: two - three classes a day + can take extra lower levels.<BR>Long Beach, (small new beginning company) where they spend 5 classes a day and 2 on sats. working on something.<P>Many of these schools have a boarding situation:<BR>SAB now has dorms, but they are only available to certain students. The others who come to NYC must find shelter of their own. Sub-lease an apt. stay at a YMCA, hope to have a relative in the area. Joffrey's school has a certain agreement now with NYU Dorms, but not a real chaperoned situation.<P>Long Beach, and others, like SFB rent out college campus dorms for the kids to stay at.<BR>These are usually a good 20-60 mins away from the dance school.<P>This is the NORM in the USA.<P>After being accepted and going to the summer programs for say 2 or so years, if the kid is good enough, they might be asked to stay all year round. This is a great honor for any local studio, as well as for the student. But creates a logistical nightmare for parents......<P>……...do they allow a 16 yr old to live in NYC by themselves, all year round, even in a dorm situation? Our dorms are not well supervised, at least (this is where the kirov thing comes in) not the way some parents would like. And, many,( SFB) have NO dorms during the regular school year, or even a regular high school where they can attend to finish school.<P>So.....most kids will do one of four things:<BR>1: not leave home, and therefore put their career in a certain amount of jeopardy....why? because they need to be at the company school to get into the company.<P>2: Go to the school, and hope to find a place to live and a school to work with them to finish their high school work<P>3: quit high school, go live at the city of the company, and hope like crazy they get a scholarship so they can pay rent.<BR>Or Mom or Dad switch off and stay with them, and they find a school or do home study.<P>4: finish high school one year early by doubling up on credits, graduate by 16-17 and go off to the company school.<P>Now, after these choices are made:<BR>The problem is:<BR>What happens at 18?<BR>Do they get into that company?<BR>Not normally, but much better chance than just auditioning.<P>Some do, but the only way to get in is to make sure you have been seen there for at least 2 or more years. Our kids are given lots of freedom, but at a price....nothing is certain. You can have a scholarship to SAB, and PCS (high school for performing kids..I went to it) and still never get into NYCB. Or any other company for that matter.<P>We have many choices to make when it comes to becoming a professional dancer. All difficult routes, but all determined by the individual.<P>So: this leads me to the Kirov school.<P>We have maybe 6 sleep away ballet schools in this country.<BR>Most are not affiliated with a ballet company, so even after the kids graduate from these schools they go on the "company hunt". They may or may not get into any company, same as the other kids. <P>Naturally, the kids who have been at the company schools have an edge over the other kids::: Why: they have trained in the style of that specific company, they have worked with the company school, know the teachers, directors etc.<P>OK: NOW<BR>These sleep away schools.....North Carolina School of the Arts, Central Penn, Ballet, Walnut Hill, Virginia School of the Arts, Interlochen (mainly for modern tho), And the Kirov.<P>Most of the sleep away schools have dance classes, and regular school classes. They live in dorms, and a pretty much chaperoned, but not to a degree where everything they do is supervised. (Many parents will not send their kids to these schools since they feel it is not a good thing for our kids to be away from home before they graduate high school.)<P>(In the USA we do not LIKE our kids to go away.<BR>WE want to raise our kids at home and be with them.<BR>Only very rich, mainly east coast high class families send their kids to "boarding or prep" schools. Those are usually the kids being geared to go to the Ivy league schools, like Princeton, Yale, etc etc. <P>The normal kids, (96+%) stay at home, do their work, and take their chances to get into the college of choice: So....USA parents like to hold and have control of their kids.)<P>BALLET parents: have a difficult time: they have the same problems. So, many will not send kids to these sleep away schools..(thereby only 6 or so schools in the entire USA) ..besides who can afford $20,000.- 40,000. a year, for the schools......it is easier to spend the 5000.00 for the summer courses.<P>Now, the parents who do send the kids to the sleep away schools, get to see the kids when ever they want, the kids can go home at holidays, they can have parents visit whenever, etc etc.<P>They also have modern ideas, like the dorms have rules but not too strict. The schools are co ed. So there are the usual problems: like any other high school, sex, drugs and video tapes...(sorry, that was a sarcastic remark about a movie, bad pun.....)<BR>But true.......the schools don't monitor the kids really closely. They are teens and they do pretty much what they might do at home. Some are "good" kids...don't smoke, drink, drug or have sex......others do some of the above and others do all of the above.<BR>And they DANCE!<P>So: then comes the Kirov:<BR>This school was set up with the mentality of being the total guardian of the kids.<P>The kids who go to this school, are told when they CAN go home. The students (who came from me), were not allowed to come back home over thanksgiving Vacation....(.that is a biggy in the USA.....College students all go home over those 4 days.)<BR>But, the Kirov kids, were told NOPE.....Too much time off, can't do it, not good for you.<P>Then came X-mas.....they were given all of less than one week.<BR>Most schools have two or three weeks at x-mas in the USA, this is when families get together, go on trips etc. So, the same with Easter, etc.<P>All the holidays that "normal" kids (even boarding school/prep school) would get to go home, or parents to visit. Not the Kirov. Parents were not allowed to take the kids out of school, they were not allowed to go home.<P>They were bussed to the local high school, in the AM, and as soon as they were done, they were bussed back to the Dance/ dorm school. They danced from the time they got home till dinner, then they were supervised with their homework, etc. Told when to go to bed.<P>They could not go out to a mall, or shopping, they were told what they could view on TV, and what movies they were allowed to see.<BR>They were carted to and from their churches or synagogues.<BR> <BR>Everything they did was always structured and supervised.<BR>They had almost no free time, to think on their own, to make up their minds........sort of like being in the army.<BR>They were given dessert only like three times a week, their menu was carefully chosen for them. And they were kept on strict diets, if they tended to be "over dance weight".<BR>They were not allowed to have candy or any other type of treats. <P>(What they are doing NOW, in the past 4 yrs. I don't know.)<P>Every minute of every day was scheduled out for them.<BR>They either had a dance class, or a homework session, or a food session, or a recreation session, which was all planned. Their whole life was driven by the school.<P>This is not the normal USA way.<BR>Be USA (us) right or wrong.....the USA kids are not like this.<BR>Many of the graduates had a hard time when they graduated 4 yrs later, making the adjustment to a normal "ballet life", getting along in a company. Some were so burned out, they quit ballet.<BR>(that is what happened to one or two of my former students).....They had never had a "normal" teen age life.<P>As for Royal Ballet School, it has been my impression, most of the kids there do a similar thing. If they are accepted, they live at the school, the school determines what they do, when they do it, and how they do it.<BR>I know China does this, Russia did this, and so do many other of the "state" schools.<P>So, the Kirov school, as it was, is very anti-USA in its mode of operations.<BR>_________________________________<BR>A side bar: EXAMPLE OF WHAT A NORMAL USA PARENT WILL HATE:<P>PERSONAL: my daughter went to Boston Ballet Summer Ballet program at age 11 yrs. She went for three weeks.<BR>During that time, we were only allowed to speak with her by phone for 5 mins one time a week.<BR>I almost had to call the cops to get her on the phone in an emergency, when my mother fell and was hospitalized.<BR>We went pick her up the last few days of the summer courses. We got there a day early. We wanted to take her out to dinner.....and were told she was not allowed to leave campus, and couldn't even see us.<BR>She was only ALLOWED to wave to us from a window from her dorm.<BR> I was so outraged. This is NOT how we do things.<BR>We were going to have her stay with us at our hotel over night......NOPE.....not allowed.<BR>Have dinner......NOPE ...not allowed.<BR>Watch classes the day before the "parents" day.<BR>NOPE..not allowed.<BR>My husband and I were furious at the administration, and let them know it.<BR>I do know that program did not continue for many years past the year my daughter was there. And believe me, I would never have sent her there again.<BR>There was no freedom, no self choice, no self determination.<BR>I feel, as many USA parents feel, this is what makes our country great......we have FREEDOM....we allow our kids to make mistakes.<BR>Sure we have a lot of problems too, but if you are a good parent and take the responsibility for them, as one should, then they will be fine. Mine are.<BR>But all that is personal.<P>It just points out how different most USA parents feel about raising kids than many other countries, where the norm is to send kids to boarding schools, or to have them know what they must do at a certain age. Take tests to put them in to the correct careers at age 13.<P>As I said all the above was a Personal triad which has to do with how the Boston School worked, so similar to the Kirov school.<P>As I said: I do not know how the Kirov school is being run now. This was as of 4 or so years back.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>------------------<BR>bek<BR>CCA CREATIONS<BR>Website: <A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/~Casalino" TARGET=_blank>http://members.tripod.com/~Casalino</A> <P><p>[This message has been edited by grace (edited September 09, 2000).]

This is all very interesting to me. I've had a very vague and unpersonal (that is, pop culture-based) undertanding of how people get to where the go in the ballet world - in the U.S. or anywhere. <P>It's always seemed as though there was the little dance place 'down the street' where someone local taught the girls in the area because that's what little girls do. <P>Then, in a totally separate world existed fancy schools for the special people. Famous people walked around. Parents would (as bek mentioned) either send the kid off to fend for herself in the big city, or, like in "Turning Point" (just on cable yesterday) the mom would accompany the dancing daughter. (Who knew how little boys grew up to be ballet dancers?)<P>Ballet is an area I really don't know much about. Yes, I've taken classes, but they fit into a fairly narrow comprehension of the entire history and world of ballet. So, it's neat for me to hear about how things are done in different places.<P>I think most parents (U.S. or not) want to be with their children, but will part with them because of how training systems are organized (or decentralized)for a better chance at the child's success.<P>I've been hearing about "this is how it is in the U.S.", but still don't really know what it is this way is being compared to. Can someone describe to me how it's different somewhere else? <P>A little girl (or boy) standing in the kitchen somewhere spins around and says, "Mama, I want to take dance classes." - then the mom says, "Ok, when we've got the money," - isn't that how it works?<P>

well, as bek has proven, this can be a long story - but here's my attempt at shortening it from the australian point of view.<P>as you say, kid spins around and says 'i want to dance'. mum says 'we'll see where your friend jade goes'....and along they go!<P>kid might be 3 or 13 or anywhere in between - or older... <P>some years down the track, when it gets to the stage bek is talking about....wanting to be 'serious'...<P>it used to be, that the australian ballet school (ABS) in melbourne (which starts from age 15) was the only place for top-notch professional BALLET training. <P>obviously this upset a lot of taxpayer parents who did not want their kids <BR>1) leaving secondary school unfinished, &<BR>2) moving across the country to be unsupervised/unparented,<BR>3) couldn't afford the situation.<P>it also annoyed dance teachers in other australian states, partly because they had the same concerns as the parents, and partly because it prevented them continuing to train their little darling prodigy.<P>so, over time, people lobbied for a change, which came about. now each state has one or two 'full-time' vocational training schools (and quite a few wannabee's!), so the kids can stay at home and still train well. some still prefer the prestige of going to the ABS, and it needs to be borne in mind that most of the AB dancers DO come from their own school.<P>over time, other things changed too:<P>1) the best supported schools (financially) now go down to ages of 10 or 8 in their 'talent search' programs - but IF they start the talented kids at 8 or 9, they don't do ballet - they do gymnastics and floor exercises (same as the russians at age 9).<P>2) the ABS started an 'associate' program of regular weekend classes for talented teens aspiring to a ballet career. this is for students who plan to audition for the ABS, OR for ones who want to keep training at their suburban intensive school, but want to ensure they remain abreast of the ABS standards as well. obviously this is impracticable if you live outside of victoria, the state in the east where melbourne is located.<P>3) the ABS have always talked about having a residential school, but there is as much opposition to this concept, as there is support. so far it hasn't happened, but it gets brought up again, every few years.<P>4) because of geographical isolation, students on the west coast who proceed through vocational training here usually either <BR>A) get a job -usually in europe - after graduating,<P>B) go on to the university performing arts course for 2 or 3 years further training, making them about 19 or 20 when they go off to audition for the first time - again, usually in europe, and they are mostly successful,<P>C) the majority either do B) or get taken in on scholarship to a select group of european schools which are government supported and don't charge fees (this really helps - so parents 'just' have to come up with fares and living expenses). <P>the schools include hamburg, stuttgart, even the vaganova school has been successfully negotiated(!); also there is besobrasova's 'l'academie de danse princesse grace' in monte carlo (but that's not a free one - nevertheless very popular).<P>only very few indeed go from here to ABS, or to other australian training institutions in the east, because it's so far/so expensive anyway, you might as well have the 'status' and thrill of going overseas, where your job chances are actually better anyway.<P>young australians by and large don't go to USA to train or to work because of visa restrictions, except for short courses to supplement other training programs. university dance courses here are keen on arranging exchange student programs - for example, to london contemporary dance school, north carolina, or juilliard.<P>look at this! i've gone on so, already! .....<P>

Thanks, Grace, that is very helpful!<P>I can just see my little horizons expanding...

We live in Canada, and I have a bit of information about how things work here. My daughters are still young, however, so I don't het have the "whole" picture...<P>There are 3-4 schools that I know of in the country which are "residential"(one is french-speaking only). I believe most of them have the Grade 5 year in school (about age 10) as the entry year. One tends to be told by teachers that girls need to be in a full-time program by the age of 12. I can understand this in terms of the physical demands of classical dance, especially when one considers that there are very few "local" dance schools which offer the intensity of study that the residential programs do. I sense that this may be different in the U.S. <P>The National Ballet School in Toronto has residences and to my understanding certain rules about visits home and phone calls for summer students in the first two weeks. However, one can also attend the summer program as a day student. I haven't heard that they are overly restrictive or overly permissive. The education is thought to be quite good at the NBS.<P>My older daughter went away to another residential program when she was 12 (she is now 13). She is billeted with a local family. The school is a 2 1/2 hour drive from our home. We talk daily and we may talk more than once a day. She comes home every two weeks or so, although she could come home every weekend...so I feel that we still play a very important part in her everyday life. In the summer I spent a day observing classes. While I was the only parent to do so on that particular day the school certainly welcomed my visit. <P>In terms of academics, she attends a public school. this poses a few logistical problems for the school (and we are currently working through one), but in general I can't say that her schooling has been compromised. Students do need to be able to take responsibility to keep up with the work, and make sure they understand any work they have missed (the daily "warm-up" class is from 10:30-12:00). <P>The issue of a career after school is finished is perhaps a bigger question. I recall that last spring some of the graduating students went to an audition (I forget which company; but it wasn't NBOC) and they would only look at NBS graduates. I imagine that one would probably need to have a "global" perspective when looking for a career in dance. <P>As a parent, I know that my daughter's chances for the career of her choice are limited. However, she is passionate about dance and it was not possible to provide her with the dance training at home she is receiving elsewhere. We take it one year at a time and see her as much as possible.<P>If you had asked me 5 years ago if I thought we would do this, I would have said absolutely not! However, here we are and thus far it's OK!

mom2 - thanks for that. this is one of the pluses of this board being international: we are able to compare such things.<P>probably i should have added a note about how it's done in england. partly because the english model has served as the basis for the national canadian company and school, as well as the australian company (and to a lesser extent the australian school).<P>england is very much like australia in having recreational dance teachers in many genres and styles everywhere - of variable quality, as happens anywhere.<P>if you are serious about ballet, the options are:-<BR>1) audition for RBS lower school (called 'white lodge') for entry at ten, and proceed thru the system from there - no guarantees<BR>2) similarly with other residential schools which have less cachet, and somewhat less job-secure outcomes (tho' that varies, depending on their focus)- but which also offer different emphases, such as musical theatre, for example<BR>3) continue with a local teacher till secondary school, and audition then for any of the above (in the case of RBS, it would then be for the 'upper school', which has been with the RB company in baron's court, but is about to move to covent garden, beside the company)<BR>4) the RBS also provides 'associate programs' which are auditioned for, from an earlier age. these are intended to supplement good ballet training supplied elsewhere. they also form a way to keep an eye on talent as it progresses, and a way to assess the child re any future offer of a place at the school, full-time. summer schools also serve the same purpose.<BR>5) places at RBS are government assisted, so the financial situation can be eased<BR>6) most of the schools can be residential or not, depending if you live close enough - there are day students in most (but not all), as well as boarders. as writers here have pointed out, there is a culture in england which is more accepting of students boarding, (for any schooling, not just dance) than, for example, in australia or america or maybe canada (mom2?....)<BR>7) moving away from ballet, there are good employment prospects in musical theatre, and several secondary schools do a very good job of producing these graduates. <BR>8) a student (or their parents) needs to consider what the aimed-for (and likely) employment outcome is, in selecting the pathway. <P>of course this is difficult when young, but many indicators are there to be seen. unfortunately, human nature being what it is, those closest to the situation (the student, the parent) may be unable to hear what they don't want to hear - and sometimes, it's just as well, because students DO confound expectations - sometimes!<BR>9) in contemporary dance, the universities have more of a role to play, though often this is more for professional development (in analysis, choreography, teaching, research), rather than for performance training (obviously - due to the age factor).<P>OK, this is long enough!

Yes, I do agree that there is something in the British culture which seems more accepting of the boarding school than what one typically sees here in North America. I remember reading in Betty Oliphant's autobiography (she was the founder of the National Ballet School and is originally from England) that she did not understand why parents in Canada were so reluctant to send their children away to school at the age of 10! <P>The National Ballet School in Toronto also offers a Junior Associate Program, similar to the one Grace described in England. A number of my daughter's friends in her current school have participated in this program. I believe it is for children aged 6 to 12. (I'm not sure what happens to those over 12...)

Does anyone have information about the style of regime in the RBS and whether it bears any relationship to the Kirov School that bek told us about?

ah,yes, well, i worked at white lodge once, and yes, she's absolutely right.<P>btw, i always think it's a good idea to refer to that washington school in some specifically identifying way, like 'washington kirov school' or whatever. otherwise, people think they're reading about the st petersburg 'vaganova' (so-called) school, which is what i first thought, when reading your question just now.<P>in terms of supervision or rules or whatever you want to call it, the fact is that they have an institution to run, and within that they have the total care and responsibility of looking after these children - lots of 'em! children being children, one has to have a system which is quite secure.<P>i can't tell you what the rules are now, but certainly people i know who grew up there, and when i was there, the schedule was clear-cut, and so were the rules, and there is no room for accommodating 'difficult' parents(!) . <P>once they are handed over to the school at whatever time and day is arranged, the school says when they can see their parents. there is a payphone where the queuing sysytem puts peer pressure on, to keep calls short (if not infrequent). for outings of course they are bussed here and there with head counts, and no way can they go off shopping on their own - but that would be madness when you have the care of kids in a big city!<P>at white lodge, they are not allowed into richmond park, i.e. outside the fence. it used to be that they could get a leave-pass to go out three at a time on the weekend, and they were required to stay together. <P>on one occasion i know of a boy who was expelled because his group of 3 got split up -can't remember whose fault it was, but do remember that one boy was upset and had run off, and that's how the group got split.<P>while the punishment seems harsh, the absolute responsibility for the safety of those children comes first, and therefore gives rise to rules which may appear draconian when not fully considered, and when not taken in the context that there is the business of running a complex organisation to be got on with, by a skeleton number of staff.<P>meals i saw were OK but very boring - however nowhere near as bad as at bush-davies when i taught there. but one really can't comment on that sort of thing, without seeing the whole picture - which i did at white lodge, but not at bush-davies.<P>bek went into considerable deatil about sweets and all sorts of things - i can't recall every rule, and i don't want to carry on here too much, but i do know that without question it is fair to say that the washington kirov school regime is similar to white lodge, and i'm sure it's for all the same responsible reasons.<BR>

a few further thoughts:<P>1) what i guess i don't understand is how you can really run such an enterprise any other way? apparently in the US, apart from the washington kirov school, they ARE run differently - more freedom - but i wonder how that can be accomplished with safety, and with the necessary efficiency to achieve the desired results?<P>2) it might bear noting that white lodge kids are aged 10 to 14. i assume the washington kids we're discussing are older. at RBS, the students 15 and over either live at home or board nearby, but pretty much unsupervised - not good, really.<P>3) i also felt that australian parents would never accept the living standards at white lodge for their kids - the tiny amount of individual space in particular, the lack of privacy, and the general 'control'/lack of options, would not be acceptable in australia.<P>this is not to say there was anything wrong with their care. just that in australia we are used to a very generous living standard, which is not the norm in london, for example, in terms of these attributes (space, privacy, etc), so we would certainly insist on a higher standard of living within any such institution.<P>

As i understand it from what you say grace, on a like with like age basis, there are few if any similarities between the Kirov School and the RBS Upper School.<P>Is that right?

bek was talking about the boarding situation. the boarding situation is -apparently- run the same way in both places.<P>

btw, stuart, i thought you'd 'appreciate' this bit about (english) dance schools, which i just came across in one of the buckroyd-book reviews:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> "many, unaccredited schools evade assessment. Moreover, no teachers are required to undergo any form of government-recognised training, ensuring that new ideas do not filter through. - - -<P>The picture she paints will no doubt be familiar to some former pupils of White Lodge, the Royal Ballet's prestigious school for 11- to 16-year-olds. <P>Five years ago, Richmond social services were brought in after complaints and concluded that staff used "draconian methods" of teaching which "would not be tolerated anywhere else". "<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>LOVE to know what THAT was about!!!!!! <P>do you know, stuart? jeanette might?<p>[This message has been edited by grace (edited October 07, 2000).]

Here in the USA it is not the norm to send a child away to school. This is usually done as a last resort - for a child who cannot behave in normal school environments.<P>I have had only limited experience with American School of Ballet (school of NYCB), but last I heard there was an informal dorm arrangement with chapparone moms. There was also the option of living-in with the local family. In either situation it means sending a youngster far away to a very large city.<P>I had one student who was chosen (many years ago) for the NYCB summer program - which is considered a high honor. While I was very proud of her achievement, I was also very ambivalent. It was almost a cult like atmosphere, with surprise weigh-ins and very restricted diets, etc. This child was very slender, but an overconcern with weight could push such a child into anorexia. As it turned out, her family fell apart and so she never got to go. (One needs to have a bit of luck as well as talent.)<P>Seems like the USA is not nearly as organized as the rest of the ballet countries, but somehow we do train great dancers, too.