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 Post subject: Re: Gaynor Minden Debate
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2001 7:12 pm 
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I THINK my daughter said the new Russian Class shoes are built for the high arched foot. She's interested in trying a pair for that reason. Has anyone else heard that?


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 Post subject: Re: Gaynor Minden Debate
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2001 8:00 pm 
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Location: US
Basheva,<BR>That was such a great story!!! I LOVED it!! Thanks for posting it! Image<BR><P>------------------<BR><BR>"If it's self expression you are looking for the place for you is the analyst's couch" - Merce Cunningham


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 Post subject: Re: Gaynor Minden Debate
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2001 11:02 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 12:01 am
Posts: 90
Location: Salt Lake City
Just to jump in here.<BR>Shoes are so much a personal choice.<BR>What works for one person will not work for nother person. What has worked for two years for one student, will not continue to work for that student for the next two years.<BR>Things constantly change.<P>1: GM's.......some students swear by them.<BR>They love this shoe.<BR>I personally dislike the shoe. At least for me.<BR>But, I have had students who bought them, and they helped them when other shoes did not work well for them.<P>2: Soft shoes, vis a vis hard.<BR>I agree.....medium shoes are about the best.<BR>I personally liked Sansha 202's for my beginner students.<BR>My motto has been, if the shoe fits, looks good, and feels pretty good, buy it.<P>3: Shoes for high arches: Try the Grishko Vaganova's.<BR>They are made with a very hard shank, and the box is a V shape, and high so that it will help to hold your foot.<BR>The lower the box the easier it is for the dancer to roll over the box.<BR>The higher the Vamp the better it is to hold your foot in the proper place.<P>Also, Grishko's are now making a new model with a drawstring.<BR>I have not seen these shoes, not do I know if they are a high vamped shoe.<BR>The literature says the shank is soft, so I am not sure that is the best shoe until you have achieved the ability to support you own weight by technique, and not rely on the shoes.<P>which brings me to # 4:<BR>It is vital for the dancer to learn how to work the shoe, not have the shoe work the dancer.<BR>I used to go through shoes so quickly as a student. I was not taught how to work out of my shoes. How to actually support myself with my own technique (and my training was SAB, and Joffrey's).....<BR>When I got more mature and started dancing in a company I found that I was wearing shoes longer and longer.<BR>I would actually dance with holes in the tips of the shoes. That was how able I was to pull out of the shoe, and rely on my own body, not the shoe.<BR>This is what I teach my students.<BR>So, my answer to the question about GM's and the fact that they do the work for the dancer.<BR>It is not a good thing.<BR>I give GM's high marks for trying new technology. Actually the all plastic shoe was done by Woesner before GM ever got into business. And those puppies were AWFUL!!<BR>Esp. if you had a broad foot and fat little toes like I had.<BR>The space between the vamp and the shank was way too shallow.<P>5: slipping........<BR>There is a new venture on the market now.<BR>The idea that suede and darning made the shoes less slippery was only good when we used rosin.<BR>It is useless on the vinyl floors of today.<P>What many schools are doing, esp. competition schoools.......they glue a rubber piece to the tips and taper the rubber to under the ball of the foot.<BR>This makes the shoes wearable on slick floors like gyms, tile etc.<BR>The wax etc. doesn't affect the rubber.<BR>It is like having a sneaker on those floors.<BR>Actually a great idea, until you go back into the studio, and try to dance.<P>OK........I have said my ideas.<P><P>------------------<BR>bek<BR>CCA CREATIONS<BR>Website:<BR>http://members.tripod.com/~Casalino<P>

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bek<BR>CCA CREATIONS<BR>Website:<BR>http://members.tripod.com/~Casalino<P><BR>


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 Post subject: Re: Gaynor Minden Debate
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2001 5:18 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 11:01 pm
Posts: 13071
Location: San Diego, California, USA
There are also some other things that can be done for the highly arched foot. Some dancers I have known have used broad stitches across the top of the foot going from side to side of the shoe. This would have the effect of lengthening the vamp. <P>I had a friend who did this, and it had a couple of advantages for her. First she had a great deal of difficulty finding vamps long enough for her feet - she had the highest arches I have EVER seen. So this sewing method allowed her to buy different styles/strengths - and alter it herself. Also the thread she used blended in with her tights, so it was virtually invisible to the audience. <P> I also knew someone else who used her ribbons in this way. With a razor blade she cut slits just under the drawstring casing, in several places above the vamp along the wings. She then threaded the ribbon through the slits - much like one uses shoe laces in regular shoes. She criss crossed it across the top of her foot, untile she reached the normal place for ribbons to be attached to shoes, and at that point she wound them around her ankles, as is normally done.<P>Worked for her - and looked nice too. <P>Placement of the ribbons can also be affected by the shape of the foot. Some dancers with highly arched feet like to sew them further down the wings - seems to give them more support.<P>JM - if your daughter tries those shoes, let us know what happens.<P>I know this post is already long, but I have to add.......as Bek says, and I agree, feet change from time to time, and the dancer needs to be aware of this. Therefore the dancer, in my opinion, should always try on shoes before buying them. It should never be assumed that because it fit until now it will always fit. That means going to the store and trying them on.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaynor Minden Debate
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2001 10:52 am 
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Location: San Diego, California, USA
Well, I talked to Debbie this morning - she is the lady I take class from. She is the only teacher I know who has bought and worn the GM shoes. (see my post of April 22nd).<P>She told me what she likes and doesn't like about the shoes. First of all she has very strong feet (we actually discussed how I am going to describe her feet - LOL), they do not have a high arch - only an average arch. She has no trouble getting over her platforms. They are "usable/serviceable" feet. <P>There were two lighter shanks than the ones she bought. So her's are on the lighter end - but not quite at the end. She demonstrated that she can control her roll down and roll up - without using the barre - very, very well. <P>We both felt that we would not recommend the harder shanks because of concerns expressed before - too precipitous a come down from pointe, and the shoe seems to press the dancer back onto the heel. <P>She also said that she would not recommend the shank she bought for a beginner, because though they are good for her, they would be too light for a beginner. Therefore, we came to the conclusion that we didn't think these shoes were for beginners. That's just the opinion of two teachers - others will come to other conclusions.<P>She also liked the soft sock very much. But she doesn't like the drawstring on the side at all. Finds it annoying to her foot. <P>Neither one of us understands drawstrings which are elastic. Although this seems to be what all the shoes have these days.<P>So there it is ...... <P><BR>


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 Post subject: Re: Gaynor Minden Debate
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2001 11:57 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2001 11:01 pm
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Location: Warren,NJ 07059
The new Grishko shoes are the 2007...they have a drawstring. I recently bought a pair of them and I LOVE THEM!! They are easy to break in and last a long time. I broke them in by bending the shank with my hands a few times, putting them on and doing about 16 releves. The only thing I could complain about is the high vamp...I prefer lower vamps. I have been wanting to try GM's though...my friend Dorothy recently bought a pair.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaynor Minden Debate
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2001 7:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 12:01 am
Posts: 1876
Location: New England
A bit about shank materials. All materials in the world show a combination of elastic, brittle and viscous properties.<P>Elastic = bend it and release, the material resumes original shape. Example: rubber ball<P>Brittle = bend it, the material breaks. Example: ceramic mug<P>Viscous = bend it, the material deforms permanently. It does NOT bend back. Example: a ball of putty<P>In theory, shanks are elastic: they return to their original shape when you bend them.<P>Traditional shanks also show viscous behavior, they'll change shape over time especially if wet.<P>GM shanks really are not viscous at all: they will ALWAYS return to their original shape, no matter how many times you bend them. But when they're heated up, they DO become viscous. So to permanently change the shape of a GM shank, you must heat it up and then bend.<BR>


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 Post subject: Re: Gaynor Minden Debate
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2001 8:43 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA USA
Thanks Citibob for the info. Very interesting. How did you find it?...I know that Gaynor Minden puts out information about their pointe shoes, but I could never get my hands on it. So you have to HEAT them to get them to change shape? Wow...I wonder how warm? Would the warmth of the foot do it over time? Is it desirable to change the shape of the shoe, or does it weaken it?


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 Post subject: Re: Gaynor Minden Debate
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2001 5:38 am 
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Location: San Diego, California, USA
Thanks CitiBob for that terrific explanation - clear, concise and interesting.<P>Here is the information on heating Gaynor Minden shoes:<P><A HREF="http://www.dancer.com/HeatForm.html" TARGET=_blank><B>Heat Forming</B></A>


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 Post subject: Re: Gaynor Minden Debate
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2001 7:56 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA USA
Very interesting Basheva. This technology is quite interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaynor Minden Debate
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2001 8:16 am 
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Location: San Diego, California, USA
There is another couple of issues that concern me about this heating the shoe technique.<P>It says at that site that the shoe can burn or be damaged beyond repair - that could be a problem until the dancer learns just how much heat to apply.<P>It also concerns me that the dancer, especially a student, might not know exactly where and how much to bend the shank, and ruin a fairly expensive pair of pointe shoes.<P>But, most of all, I really think about the safety issue. Lots of students on pointe are young teens and dealing with heating things to bend them with their hands is a concern.<P>And, not everyone has a hair dryer - I don't.<P>I guess, the bottom line is, for me, that I am more comfortable with the shoe shaping itself to my foot - on my foot.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaynor Minden Debate
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2001 2:02 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 12:01 am
Posts: 1876
Location: New England
Some of the dancers in my company use GM shoes. They really do last "forever".<P>Problem is, the materials on the tips wears through VERY fast, in about 1-2 days of class and rehearsals, and the blue fiberglass underneath shows. If you don't do anything at that point, the shoe will soon die.<P>You can glue moleskin onto the tips, and then the moleskin wears through every two days. So you get more and more layers of worn-through moleskin, not a pretty sight for performance. Also, gluing on the moleskin properly is an elaborate, time-consuming process.<P>Why can't GM find a durable material for the tips of the shoes?<BR>


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 Post subject: Re: Gaynor Minden Debate
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2001 4:32 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 11:01 pm
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Location: San Diego, California, USA
Would darning the tips of the pointe shoes help? I used to darn all my pointe shoes.<P>Has anyone tried that?


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 Post subject: Re: Gaynor Minden Debate
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2001 6:25 pm 
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Location: New England
I'm not quite sure, but I recall having asked that question in my studio. For some reason, I think that GM's may be un-darnable.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaynor Minden Debate
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2001 6:51 pm 
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Location: San Diego, California, USA
Though I have no personal knowledge - never having owned a pair of Gaynor Mindens - it is entirely possible that they are undarnable. When I darned my Capezios the thread and needle would go through the satin, but also the material underneath. <P>The needle, and subsequently the thread, must be able to penetrate whatever material is under the satin.


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