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 Post subject: FBI warns that terrorists may try to enter U.S. on arts,
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 4:35 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 12:01 am
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Location: The Bronx is up; the Battery's down
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U.S. officials have received intelligence indicating terrorists might attempt to slip into the United States using cultural, arts or sports visas, according to the FBI. The bureau issued a bulletin to 18,000 state and local law enforcement agencies nationwide.
More from the Houston Chronicle

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 Post subject: Re: FBI warns that terrorists may try to enter U.S. on arts,
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:07 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA,USA
I have to say that I would seriously question anything that Ashcroft would say. The bottom line is that if we are so weak as a country that 10 guys with box cutters can destroy our constitution, then perhaps it is time for a new FBI director that doesn't start each meeting with a pray group. Perhaps instead we should address the root causes of terrorism instead of fighting a war on terrorism ( by the way - I am unsure of the difference between a guy strapping a bomb on himself and killing people vs sending 8000 cruise missiles from sixty miles away - apart from one being more efficient, aren't both attacks on innocent people )?
To post alerts about the potential risk of " terrorists" infiltrating our country through the arts reeks of fascism.
Although I am aware that I am skirting the edge of appropriate political engagement for this website on this topic, I think that it is a legitimate topic to discuss the relationship between fascist societies ( ie Nazi Germany/Hitler/Himler/Goehring and the current US administration/Bush/Ashcroft/Chaney and their relationship to the arts. Would it be legitimate to compare the Arts to the canary in the coal mine? Are we seeing the same attack that the germans saw on their arts in pre-Nazi Germany?
However, to p-[ut the subject back on track, could it be that the Arts are really like like the bird they us eto bring down


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 Post subject: Re: FBI warns that terrorists may try to enter U.S. on arts,
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 8:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2003 12:01 am
Posts: 109
Whoa! What are you talking about, we are weak as a country? Have you seen what daily life is like in other countries? I would imagine a prayer of any sort would be a healthy thing. Fascist Society? Little Birdies? Its this kind of perspective that makes me want to bomb the hell out of that little birdie the arts. I kind of apologize if this is a harsh attack on another's post, but hey I'm an American. If you don't like it, move to freakin Denmark!

[One acronym edited by Azlan for compliance to courtesy policy]

<small>[ 01 April 2004, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: Azlan ]</small>


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 Post subject: Re: FBI warns that terrorists may try to enter U.S. on arts,
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:17 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:01 am
Posts: 34
Location: Benicia, CA, USA
I have seen what life in two other countries is like, and while I like one of their governments better (Mexico. The one with the government I don't like would be China) I wouldn't want to move there. Maybe, if I could speak Spanish and had a reasonably secure job lined up for me, but... Actually, if I was going to move out of the USA, I would probably move to Canada. Or possibly France. I'll tell you one thing though, I really don't like the current administration. I could give you several reasons, most of which you've probably heard before, but the main problem I have with them is deceitfulness. I don't feel that our current president was elected fairly, and I really don't like what he and his administration have done with our trust. As far as the Arts and the current administration goes, I guess that means good things for those of us in the country, especially those of us (me I'm guessing :D ;) ) who've actually been on the same stage as the President. More repeat performances, better chance of getting one at all for people who haven't done one. I still don't think this measure is a good thing though. I like to delude myself into thinking that I'm for international peace and brotherhood and that sort of thing. I'm sure that I would feel differently if choirs like mine (my choir is my main claim to fame) started springing up all over the world though. Personally, I think that this is relatively unimportant. I don't know how many people come into the country to perform though. It might slightly stunt a few groups' growth a bit, but I think that it wouldn't be a huge problem for most.


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 Post subject: Re: FBI warns that terrorists may try to enter U.S. on arts,
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:40 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 22, 1999 11:01 pm
Posts: 17498
Location: SF Bay Area
Okay, guys. Keep it cool. Debate is fine and I can see both points very well but two things to remember:

1. No flaming (and no profanity);

2. Keep the context within the arts.

Also, it's difficult for some people to hear attacks on their passion (arts in this case) or criticism against their nation, so be mindful of your approach and also have an open mind to listen. One reason the US became a great nation is through accountability -- people speak up and leaders listen. A great nation has to know where its faults are and that come only when its citizens point out those faults.


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 Post subject: Re: FBI warns that terrorists may try to enter U.S. on arts,
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 12:09 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2003 12:01 am
Posts: 109
Okay Okay, the wrath of Rothbart has been chilled out a bit. All I gathered from the article is that they are being cautious and being more thourough with their screening process to grant arts and sports visas. Its not saying they won't grant them. I suppose that if a big red flag comes up from your fingerprints, you won't being pirouetting at the Met. Considering the events that occured on 9/11, I am glad for this. Just like I have no problem with taking my shoes off at the airport. I don't understand how this makes our govenment "Deceitful", more like "Cautious".


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 Post subject: Re: FBI warns that terrorists may try to enter U.S. on arts,
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:29 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 12:01 am
Posts: 3663
Location: The Bronx is up; the Battery's down
Quote:
I don't know how many people come into the country to perform though. It might slightly stunt a few groups' growth a bit, but I think that it wouldn't be a huge problem for most.
See these links:

Quote:
The government's new visa rules, designed to shut U.S. borders to terrorists, are having an unintended effect in the cultural world: They are keeping out international performing artists, too.

Organizers of cultural events in the Bay Area and across the nation say they're being forced to cancel and change scheduled acts, squeezing the groups financially and depriving audiences of seeing acclaimed singers, filmmakers and other luminaries from foreign countries.
More

Quote:
Miami, USA - Cuban musicians Ibrahim Ferrer, Chucho Valdes and Cuban group Los Van Van, three nominees for the September 3rd Latin Grammy Award show, are not expected to attend the Latin music inspired extravaganza, due to a visa snafu with the U.S. State Department.
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Quote:
Booking a foreign performer in the United States has become a nerve-racking experience for arts organizations caught in the web of tightened national security.

Cuban pianist Chucho Valdés last week canceled his U.S. tour, which would have included a stop at the Annenberg Center on Saturday, because he couldn't get a visa in time
More

Quote:
With only days to go before her March 30 sold-out concert at The Scottish Rite Temple, Rita ? one of Israel?s most popular musical divas who is known by her first name ? almost didn?t make it to America for her three-city tour.

The superstar was temporarily denied entry into the United States on grounds that she was Iranian born.
More

There are many, many more. Just do a search on 'Visa concert "state department"'.

Trabhtor, did you really mean to imply that if it only affects some organizations -- but not all -- it's OK?

Pastor Martin Niemöller said it best almost 60 years ago:

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

<small>[ 02 April 2004, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: salzberg ]</small>

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 Post subject: Re: FBI warns that terrorists may try to enter U.S. on arts,
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 6:34 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 12:01 am
Posts: 3
Matthew,

I don't understand the purpose of this comment in your previous post:

Quote:
perhaps it is time for a new FBI director that doesn't start each meeting with a pray group
It's way off topic. It's also inappropriate for you to insinuate something deragatory regarding Ashcroft's capabilities as AG because he starts his day with prayer. If you don't trust him, fine. If you think he's ineffective, fine. But to state that you have a problem with his personal beliefs is sort of amusing considering your comment about the US Constitution. Do you prefer the Constitution to protect only those rights with which you agree?

People on this board have lots of diverse beliefs and it's inconsiderate to make unkind and unfair references to someone because of his/her Christian faith. It's also completely irrelevant.

<small>[ 02 April 2004, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: susanb ]</small>


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 Post subject: Re: FBI warns that terrorists may try to enter U.S. on arts,
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:41 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2002 11:01 pm
Posts: 602
Location: Seattle, WA,USA
First, I apologize if I came off a little harsh, but I am quite concerned with the way this country is headed and I do wonder if the right wing attack on the arts is a sign of things to come. I maintain my opinion that there is a definite correlation between pre Nazi germany and what is happening now in the US, and I do think that the Arts may be one of the battle grounds.
In response to the "love it or leave it comment" I do agree that I am in an ethical deilemma. What would of been the appropriate response of a law abiding citizen in 1934 germany when he started to see flags on people lapels and cars? Should he have cut and run, or should he have fought from within?
In response to John Ashcrofts prayer meetings - I feel that he can do whatever he wants on his own time, but when I am paying his salary with my tax dollars I would prefer he spend time on Law enforcement activities rather than forcing his employees to join him in prayer groups. Isn't there something called seperation of church and state?
The realtionship between the arts and the government, and the power with the arts can sway public opinion, shouldn't be underestimated, and has been a topic of debate for at least 2500 years ( Plato's Republic comes to mind - again ).


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 Post subject: Re: FBI warns that terrorists may try to enter U.S. on arts,
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:49 am 
Quite simply put, if you don't have national security, nothing else matters. Not jobs, not economy, not education, not gas prices, not crime, not the arts (regrettably) - if you wake up one morning and find yourself peeking out of a hole in the ground, looking at a nuclear moonscape. With 1,000,000 illegals a month coming across our porous borders, the INS needs to get REALLY busy... Second worst scenario - the dirty bomb - can really ruin your day...


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 Post subject: Re: FBI warns that terrorists may try to enter U.S. on arts,
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 9:12 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:01 am
Posts: 81
Location: San Ramon High School
Azlan...isn't this topic a little far afield from "dance"?


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 Post subject: Re: FBI warns that terrorists may try to enter U.S. on arts,
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:13 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 22, 1999 11:01 pm
Posts: 17498
Location: SF Bay Area
You're right, Shallot. How about we close this topic for at least 24 hours? Moderators?


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 Post subject: Re: FBI warns that terrorists may try to enter U.S. on arts,
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:30 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2002 11:01 pm
Posts: 602
Location: Seattle, WA,USA
Sounds pretty reasonable to me, though I would point out that since the initial article discussed how the "Homeland" security office deals with artists, it does seem appropriate to discuss the moral legitimacy of a Homeland Security Office


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 Post subject: Re: FBI warns that terrorists may try to enter U.S. on arts,
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 11:13 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2003 12:01 am
Posts: 109
For Once, I have to agree with Matthew. If the homeland security office is indeed impacting the arts, we should discuss/debate. I am now curious though Matthew what you believe would be an alternative to our now cautious stance that would be legitimately moral? Should we open the gates? Be the country we started off as, everyone welcome? Are you speaking of Revolution? Anarchy? What are some ideas that would find the root of terrorism instead of our current war against terrorism? Inquiring minds want to know.


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 Post subject: Re: FBI warns that terrorists may try to enter U.S. on arts,
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 11:18 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:01 am
Posts: 81
Location: San Ramon High School
Again...this is moving off the topic of "dance" into political debate. Whether or not the subject is the arts...I strongly encourage Azlan or another moderator to close or at least delay this topic.


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