There are things that puzzle me about the flexibility of hips- what parts are used for certain things, what is stretched when you do what. I wonder what are the ligaments in the hip area and muscles surrounding it? I want to know how to stretch all the parts of my hips. I see some people whose legs won't go down in butterfly postion, but in other stretches, they go more easily- so it must be stretching another part. Personally, I have a horrible lack of flexibility in every part of the hip that can or can't be flexible! I know that utimately, bone construction just has a final say in how far your hips will go, but I know people who start later in life than me (one teacher in particular) that went from hips worse than mine to really nice flexibility and great turnout. I want to know how to strecth out ALL of the muscles and ligaments of my hip area, it worries me, because it hinders me in everything that I do in dance. When I ask people who don't have that problem, they say "just relax and let your hips fall!" which really irks me, because exhaling will not loosen up my bone structure! And if my bones truly will not let my hips go any further, am I destined to have a crappy dance career?

Do the bones keep one from achieving flexibility? I guess I've never thought of it that way. If I remember correctly from anatomy class in high school, what keeps the bones from bending/swiveling/pivoting is the tendons and ligaments, which hold the muscles to bone and muscles to muscles. So it would stand to reason that the bones don't inhibit movement - the flexibility (or lack thereof) the muscles/tendons/ligaments combinations are what inhibit flexibility and mobility.<P>But I'm not a doctor, and high school was a ways off...

As I understand it - the flexibility or lack thereof is a combination of several factors. One of them is the shape of the joint itself. I want to keep my answer as simple as possible..... <P>I was told by an orthopedist speicalist once that shape of the bone structure is individual. The hip socket, the head of the femur, etc. The ligaments which hold bone to bone are individual too, as are the tendons which connect muscle to bone (simply speaking), and of course length of muscle.<P>One can't change the shape of the bones. You don't want to stretch ligaments - that's an injury. It is muscle that stretches, and that too, has limits.<P>When you see an older person, who after working at it, is able to increase their flexibility - that person is just accessing their available flexibility. In my opinion.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Basheva (edited July 02, 2001).]

I guess I have something else to add....<P>Though probably as a general rule stretching is easier as a child than as an adult. However, I would bet that every ballet teacher has probably seen some children, quite young children, who are very tightly constructed. No turnout - no backbend to speak of. And yet they are young.<P>I had a neighbor in her 70's who never danced a day in her life, and didn't exercise either, who could flop down into a perfect split. She could do a perfect heel stretch (leg up by the side of her face, etc.) Here I was, at that time in my 20's, and sweating bullets to attain my splits. And if I didn't practice regularly, it was almost like starting over again.<P>She was obviously constructed much more loosely then I was - longer ligaments, tendon's, muslces - or a combination thereof.<P>The lesson I learned was that it didn't accomplish anything for me to be comparing my construction to others - I am what I am - and that's what I have to work with. <p>[This message has been edited by Basheva (edited July 02, 2001).]

I agree -- we are all different, and nothing is gained from comparing our individual flexibility to anyone else's.<P>I hope that some of our anatomy experts will come in here. As a teacher, I have seen many variations on the flexibility theme. Children who seem very tightly constructed sometimes stay that way, but sometimes seem to loosen up some at puberty (hormones?). Sometimes it works exactly the opposite. And I've seen adults who come into class as tight as can be, who, with consistent and informed work, end up with very decent stretch and extension.<P>One comment about the hips. When we talk about turnout coming from the hips, many of us think about it coming from the part of the hips we can feel -- the bony parts of the pelvis. Turnout actually originates deeper in, in the hip sockets, where the head of the femur fits into the acetabulum. Many muscles come into play, as does ligamentation, in accomplishing turnout. But I've had many students who flare the hips, or tip or twist the pelvis, thinking they are turning out from the hips. And often what we blame on the hips can actually be the result of tightness in the lower back, or hamstrings, or etc. So it is definitely a complex picture!

Thanx y'all! So... any good strecthes that incorporate hamstrings and the hip area? And does anyone know where I can find a picture of the internal hip construction?

Bebounce, 2 books, both paperback, are very easy to understand with very good pictures. I suggest them to my clients and they love them! "Anatomy of Movement" and "Anatomy of Movement Exercises" both by Calais-Germain, and one also has another writer in addition, Lamonte.

Another question- So if you sit on your back in butterfly position, is that always what your turnout is? Can you have a not so great butterfly position, and still have good turnout?

I knew a dancer once who had a perfect butterfly position...and yet didn't have a great turnout at all.<P>There is the facility to turnout and the ability to hold/use that turnout. One doesn't guarantee the other.

True turnout is not measured with the hips flexed (or bent.) And Basheva is right, the ability to turn out must be developed or controlled by the various muscles responsible.<p>[This message has been edited by Maggie (edited July 04, 2001).]