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 Post subject: Re: Discussion about Danser
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2002 1:28 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2001 12:01 am
Posts: 56
Je réinterviens mais c'est la dernière fois (méfiez-vous quand même j'ai jusqu'au 25 ou 26 mai Image).<P>Je suis heureuse que mes interventions vous ai intéressées marc29 Image. Cela change des dialogues de sourd. Si chacun pouvait écouter et comprendre l'autre cela ne ferait pas de mal.<P>J'ai l'impression qu'une fois de plus le débat dégénère complètement et je me demande si nous ne sommes pas en train de battre des records. <P>Je ne comprends pas que les Postings où les intervenants se prennent à partie soient autorisés pour le dire autrement le débat ne devrait jamais porter sur les intervenants eux-même et lorsqu'on lit ce Topic, c'est surtout cela qui ressort.<P>Pourtant les choses sont relativement simples : de par son mode de fonctionnement, "Danser" est un forum d'opinion qui est dans le vrai sur certains points, moins sur d'autres. L'administration du forum ne souhaitant visiblement pas de modification de cette ligne éditoriale rien ne sert de crier dans le vide.<P>Pour ce qui me concerne, je n'ai jamais pris position dans ces discussions et que je ne puisse poster ne change rien à la diversité des opinions exprimées (ceci étant je n'ignore pas que les procédures d'identification par e-mail sont aisément contournables mais je laisse cela à d'autres).<P>Pour ma part j'invite les posters qui ont des avis artistiques divergents à poster leurs opinions dans les Topics consacrés aux critiques artistiques car il ne sert à rien de s'ébrouer dans des Topics à caractère général où personne n'écoute personne et où les opinions ne font que se cristaliser. En effet, je suis quelque peu étonnée par le relatif consensus dans les critiques de spectacles et l'absolu désaccord lorsque le débat quitte le domaine artistique. Pourtant à mon sens, ce sont les avis artistiques qui sont émis qui devraient faire débat.<P>Tout se passe comme si artistiquement tout le monde était d'accord ou pire n'avait pas d'avis et comme si les questions annexes permettaient de se chamailler pour le plaisir. <P>Tout ceci pour arriver enfin à ma conclusion : N'est-t-on pas en train d'oublier que nous parlons de danse ?<p>[This message has been edited by CorParis (edited May 22, 2002).]


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion about Danser
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2002 1:47 am 
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Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 11:01 pm
Posts: 15
Malheusement, j'arrive alors que tout vient d'être dit. <BR>Il est regrettable que le débat dégénère dans une confrontation de personnes et évite ainsi les sujets de fond : "t'as pas ta bonne adresse e-mail", "t'as pas à me le dire comme ça", "et comment tu veux que je te le dise ?".<BR>Je vois aussi que l'administration est très chatouilleuse parce que si ce qui a été écrit par cloclo n'est pas acceptable, que devraient donc dire les danseurs qui sont autrement insultés et trainés dans la boue (je rappelle qu'ils n'ont pas le droit de réponse dans un forum public) ? Ileana vous lisez "Danser" régulièrement, cela vous a vraiment choqué ? hummm<BR>L'administration fait tout son possible pour essayer de rendre leur dignité au débat et éviter les insultes. Malheureusement les décisions prises ont des effets pervers, le départ d'intervenants sincères, et d'un autre coté elles ne garantissent pas l'exclusion des posters diffamatoires. <BR>D'autre part "Danser" est un "forum d'opinion" pour reprendre l'euphémisme de CorParis et cela ne changera pas.<BR>Je ne souhaite pas mettre en cause l'administration du forum qui fait tout son possible, je ne fais que m'interroger sur le résultat des mesures décidées. Enfin tout cela a déjà été dit, ça me surprend que l'administration du forum ne conteste pas cela au moins pour la forme, comme cela on ne peut pas leur reprocher d'être de mauvaise foi.<BR>La seule chose qui n'a pas été dite est que si un jour un artiste s'estime diffamé par ce qui est écrit et décide de porter plainte, adresse e-mail ou pas adresse e-mail il n'y aura aucune difficulté pour retrouver le poster diffamant. A bon entendeur !<P>PS : mon adresse e-mail est albeod@ifrance.com et je vais bientôt être interdit d'intervention.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion about Danser
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2002 2:52 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 24, 1999 11:01 pm
Posts: 19975
Location: London, England; Tallinn, Estonia
You are right albeod that your posting rights will be suspended unless you can offer some form of identification, as outlined above and for the reasons given above. The choice is yours and the same applies to CorParis. In the US we have well-known current and ex-dancers and administrators who post under their own names and thus stand fully behind their comments. There are others who post under an alias, because of professional concerns, but are known to the Directors. I really don’t see why this is not possible for some French posters, but there we are.<P>It is a central purpose of all the forums on criticaldance to allow dance lovers to praise and criticise dancers, choreographers and administrators, courteously and that is not going to change. I share your concern albeod if dance artists are discussed discourteously. If you choose not to follow the procedures laid down for posting, nevertheless you can, as a reader, e-mail me if you feel that a dance artist has been treated discourteously or if you feel that the Moderators have acted unjustly. The Directors will look into it and see that changes are made if we agree. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Stuart Sweeney (edited May 23, 2002).]


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion about Danser
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2002 4:28 am 
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"There we are" Stuart. I have no doubt about your bona fide but I see we can't understand ourselves and we are not helped by the french moderators.<BR>I just see like everybody that the posters, except Mathieu, who are leaving never did anything against courteously and if you have some discourteously postings in the future (...). And I am sorry but with your new rules there is no reason to have less discourteously in the future.<BR>Thank you for your invitation to send you an e-mail if there is a problem.<BR>Am I wrong if I say the situation of "Danser" is not so simple as you say ?<P>Sorry for my english.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion about Danser
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2002 4:50 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 12:01 am
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Location: The Bronx is up; the Battery's down
Your English is fine, Albeod; it's certainly better than my French.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Am I wrong if I say the situation of "Danser" is not so simple as you say ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not at all. Stuart started this thread so that users could share their concerns, and we're grateful that you do.

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Jeffrey E. Salzberg,
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http://www.jeffsalzberg.com


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion about Danser
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2002 7:34 am 
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Thank you for my "fine english" Salzberg, I try again.<P>If we agree to say the situation of "Danser" is not so simple, I don't really understand the answers from the moderators or administrators from the beggining of the thread. Sometimes you do like if nothing had been said, sometimes you answer to say "No I don't agree" or "You will be suspended", "Your e-mail is not correct", "You are discourteous". I really don't understand. Is this thread really useful ?


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion about Danser
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2002 8:00 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 12:01 am
Posts: 3663
Location: The Bronx is up; the Battery's down
Let me try to summarize the moderators' position.<P>It is the policy of CriticalDance that users may say whatever they please, so long as it is courteous (Obviously, a comment that is libelous would also be considered discourteous).<P>Users may feel free to disagree with moderators, administrators, and other users as much as they please; what they may not do is engage in <I>ad hominem</I> attacks. They may, for example, criticize someone's choreography and dancing from a technical and artistic standpoint (and I understand that such criticism is more common in the US and the UK than it is in France; this cultural difference may be part of the problem), but they may not say, "This dancer is ugly".<p>[This message has been edited by salzberg (edited May 23, 2002).]

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Jeffrey E. Salzberg,
Dance Lighting Design
http://www.jeffsalzberg.com


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion about Danser
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2002 11:33 am 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>this cultural difference may be part of the problem<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You are completly right Salzberg. When I read these postings I understand we don't speak about the same subject. Everybody agree what you said Salzberg. <P>The problem of "Danser" is not this one. "Danser" has a problem of pluralism. And if you suspend posting rights it will be worth.<P>I repeat : everybody agree about courteously but if you suspend posting rights of poster who didn't breach theses rules, you will have a forum with only one opinion and it will close quickly.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion about Danser
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2002 12:00 pm 
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Location: The Bronx is up; the Battery's down
I guess I just don't understand why this is a problem; no user who can furnish us an email address, other than one from a free service such as Hotmail or Yahoo, will be suspended.<P>Why would anyone have a problem with this?

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http://www.jeffsalzberg.com


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion about Danser
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2002 10:24 pm 
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This pluralism problem was present before the new rules.<P>I understand your question Salzberg and I can't answer for all the posters. Some of french are not very confident in the Internet and they will not give their name as they don't want to give their credit card number. Some posters could be professional who absolutely want to be anonymous. It is a personal though but I think the french moderation on Danser didn't give to much confidence in the management of the forum (here in this Topic Ileana used my address to discredit my posting) and so on.<P>The question is not only why the people will refuse to give their name, the question is also will they refuse ? And we already have a part of the answer : a part of the most important french posters in quality and quantity has already said they will stop posting and we have to wait the week of delay before the suspension, I think the list will be impresive.<P>In France every IFS has a free service and you can have an inscription by the internet exactly like for yahoo! addresses so the address of a french IFS has no more value than a yahoo! or a hotmail address.<P>The result could be this one : no more pluralism (who was not very important before), the only point of view will be the moderator one and discourteously like before.<P>Do you understand the complete paradox of this new rule in the case of "Danser" ? I am very surprised the french moderators didn't explain you that, very surprised.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion about Danser
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2002 10:53 pm 
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Salzberg said : "this cultural difference may be part of the problem"<P>Yes, I agree, I think we should speak only in english here because postings in french were not understood. It explains why we can't be understood. Like CloClo, I'm estonished by the silence of the french moderation. What game are they playing ?<BR>There is a cultural difference in the organization of this topic. in France we discuss and only after we take decisions. In this Topic Stuart explained the decisions and then we discuss. It's not the french culture and it's difficult to understand for us.<P>


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion about Danser
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2002 3:48 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2001 11:01 pm
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Location: Paris, FRANCE
Why are the French moderators silent ? Personally I've better to do than wasting my time in idle discussions. And I just don't undestand your point, Cloclo and Albeod. You dont'like "Danser" ? So why spend your time in contesting the utility of the new regulations ? The day when I will no more like "Danser", I will leave...<P>PS : No pluralism on Danser ? Please read more carefully. Is there a unique opinion on the nomination of the new Etoile Laetitia Pujol ? Is there a unique opinion on Diana Vishneva's recent performance ? Oh, yes there seems to bee a rather unique opinion on Dunn's Pulcinella : almost all members found it of little interest... <BR>


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion about Danser
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2002 4:05 am 
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Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Je suis en accord avec Ileana. Ce bulletin est un effort volontaire qui n’est possible que parce que les modérateurs, les modératrices et les administrateurs donnent leur temps gratuitement et ce parce qu'ils apprécient la danse et les discussions qui y surgissent. Assurément, nous ne faisons pas ce travaille dans le but de régler les batailles rangers ou d’arranger des petites chicanes de sujets varier. C’est fatigant et franchement, aussi alésant. A ce que je crois, nous sommes tous adulte ou du moins civiliser. Si vous voulez régler votre compte utilise d’autre moyen. Encore je referais le point sur le fait que ce site est une contribution volontaire, donc nous ne faisons pas d'argent à partir de ce site, nous l’offrons gratuitement, un service pour l’entière communauté de la danse. Toutes les décisions qui y sont prisent concernant les membres y sont discutées avant qu’une mesure y soit prise. S’il y a des personnes qui se sentent viser par ce message, vous être bienvenu de répondre directement aux administrateurs de ce site. Les gens qui sont polie dans leurs discussions n’ont pas à s'inquiéter d’être l’objet d’un bannissement. Ce bulletin a toujours essayé de fonctionner avec justesse pour tous les membres et artistes.<P>-------<BR>I am in agreement with Ileana. This board is volunteer-run and would not be possible without the moderators and administrators who donate their time because they appreciate dance and the discussions that ensue. Rest assured, we don't do this because we enjoy moderating squabbling or discussions which have little to do with the subjects at hand. It's tiring, and frankly, boring. We are all civilized adults. If you wish to quarrel there are other places. Again, this site is a voluntary effort, from which no profit is made, offered free to the dance community at large. All decisions made regarding members are thoroughly discussed before any action is taken. If anyone has a problem with this post you are welcome to take it up with the administrators. People who conduct polite discussions need not worry about their status on this board. This board has always endeavoured to be fair to all in the dance milieu, members and dance artists alike.<p>[This message has been edited by Marie (edited May 24, 2002).]


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion about Danser
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2002 4:56 am 
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Papotages inutiles : Je pense que vous avez raison et que ce Topic devrait être fermé.<BR>Pourquoi je reste ici ? Parce que contrairement à vous mon métier est la danse et que j'en ai assez de lire ce que je lis ici. Vous faites beaucoup de mal et être bénévole n'est certainement pas une excuse. Ce sujet semble beaucoup vous gêner la première fois que je l'ai abordé Cathy et vous aviez crié "Hors topic, hors topic" et maintenant vous dites que c'est sans intérêt.<BR>Je suis désolé que vous utilisiez tous les moyens possibles pour refuser de parler des questions de fond. Cette méthode fonctionne puisque nous ne parlons plus du sujet mais le jour où quelqu'un sévira vraiment vous ne pourrez pas dire que vous n'avez pas été prévenus.<P><BR>Idle discussions : I think you are right, this Topic should be closed.<BR>Why I stay here ? Because my work is to dance unlike you and I am tired to read what I read in this forum. You hurt a lot and to be voluntary is certainly not an excuse. This Topic seems to embarass you, the first time I post about that you and Cathy said "out of topic, out of topic" and now you say this is not interesting.<BR>I'm so sorry you use all the ways possible to refuse to discuss about real questions. This method seems to work because we don't discuss about the Topic. But the day somebody will prevail you won't be able to say you weren't prevent.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion about Danser
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2002 5:51 am 
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I am not a dancer but I share the albeod reasons to post here.<P>Ileana if there is no pluralism problem how do you explane several posters have mentioned that ?<P>For you is there only one concern's with the new rules or this is perfect ?


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